[pbleighton]

Some ammo for the strong NT'ers:

The common arguments against weak NT are:
1 They bury your fit. This is a real problem.
2 They go down. This can be a problem down 2 vulnerable, and very occasionnally doubled, but generally it is not nearly as common to get a bad board as with 1.
3 Strong NT hands opened 1m are vulnerable to a WJO, especially if you don't have very sound 1m openers. Pd doesn't know what to do with a 9 count. True, but not frequent.

There is one good argument against weak NT which I have very rarely seen in this type of discussions. That is that strong NT hands opened 1m lose in part score auctions where it goes 1m-1M- (1S or 1NT) -2M, and you must let them play in 2M or balance, and the strong NT pairs see the auction go 1NT-All Pass. In my experience, this is a much more frequent than 3.

Generally, playing weak/mini NT, we have preempted opps games a LOT more than they have ours.

Peter

[pclayton]

Interesting harmonic convergence going on here with this thread and one that I read last week.

1♣ - (transfer) gets you around the 15-16 balanced raise.
1♦ - 1 major - 2♣ (nebulous) can easily handle the 15-16 3 trumper

Intuitively, this seems to gel nicely with a 5542 structure.

[MickyB]

whereagles, on Sep 11 2005, 09:28 PM, said:

I like this style:

Strong NT
1m-1M-2M = 12-14, bal or unbal
1m-1M-3M = 15-17, unbal

Weak NT
1m-1M-2M = 12-14, unbal
1m-1M-3M = 15-17, bal or unbal

I don't like this structure - an unbal hand that is maximum in terms of high cards will have *far* more playing strength than a bal hand that is minimum in high cards.

Back to the original problem - If you could afford both 2N and 3m as invitational over 1m:1M, 2M then I think you are ok, I'd suspect this makes slam bidding pretty hard though! My style is to prefer sound openings in the minors anyway, the reasons to open light in the majors are that you have the playing strength to start looking for a 10 trick game in your suit and you want to make a decent description of your hand.

[whereagles]

Well, when I say "15-17 bal or unbal", I mean including distribution if unbal.

[han]

Still gives you the same problem, you have to raise to 3M with 15-17 balanced (may be too high), while strong NT-ers don't have that problem.

[dougbennion]

I've been playing 12-14 notrumps forever . Lately I've been using transfer methods to 1♣ that work very well. 1♦ = hearts, 1♥ = spades, 1NT = GF clubs, 2♣ = GF diamonds. 1♠ is a minor-heavy catchall denying a 4-card major (something like a standard 1♦ - 1NT bid).

We put all of our balanced hands that we don't open notrump into our 1♣ opener, including 3=3=5=2 shapes. We announce 'could be short'. As a corollary (and a HUGE bonus), our 1♦ opener shows 5+ in an unbalanced hand (we pray never to be dealt a 4=4=4=1 hand).

In our system, after 1♣ - 1♦ showing hearts, a 1♥ rebid shows a strong notrump with 4 hearts. A corollary of this is you can probe for games and STOP at 2♥. Our 2♥ rebid shows an unbalanced minimum. A 3♥ rebid shows 18-19 balanced (or strong unbalanced). 1♠ shows 4 spades and an unbalanced hand probably with heart shortness. We rebid 1NT with 15-17 balanced and up to 3 trumps, which we can locate if needed with two-way CBS.

WE ignore overcaller's double, and over a 1♦ overcall we double to show hearts, and otherwise the system is on. The system is off for higher overcalls.

Before using these transfers, in the auction 1♣ - 1♥, opener would rebid 2♥ to show EITHER a strong notrump with 4 hearts, or an unbalanced minimum (sometimes with three trumps). Responder used 2NT as a general query to find our what kind of hand opener held. The transfers work a lot better.

The only defect we have found .. and it is manageable I think ... is the fact opener might only hold 2 clubs in his 1♣ opener. In competitive auctions, this can pose problems for responder.

I've seen some of the Canadian kids (Wolpert pair, Grainger pair) playing something that looks similar, but I noticed they used the 1♥ rebid to show their strong notrump with 4 hearts. I suppose you could use the 1♥ rebid to show just 3 trumps, but I prefer the way we handle it.

[dougbennion]

I mistyped above ... the Canadian kids use a 2♥ rebid, not a 1♥ rebid, to show the strong notrump hand.

[pclayton]

Hi Doug - welcome to the forum!

Your Jammer 2's have been discussed here somewhat.

I like the trasnfer idea myself - but it is midchart I think (for now and awhile I think). Still, I think I'm going to implement them - perhaps use them in the team games where I can.

[dougbennion]

Thank you pclayton.

The 1♣ transfers are mid-chart, but the defence is so trivially easy, the local club where I play permits it (Gavin has used it there as well). Played them in a local tournament Swiss team event recently too ... the director permitting it IF we got prior permission, which we invariably did.

And I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear partner open 1♦ (5+, unbalanced), and be able to compete with just three trumps, and play Bergenish raises, the whole bit.

And we'll be using it in local team league matches.

[dougbennion]

Oh one more benefit of transfers after 1♣, is you can respond with terrible hands. If responder bids 1♦ with say xx/Jxxxx/xxx/xxx, what can happen?

Opener can rebid 1♥ with a strong notrump and responder can either safely pass or pre-empt with 2♥. If opener rebids 2♥ with an unbalanced minimum, you might have stolen the hand. If opener rebids 1NT, you are no worse off than the strong-notrumpers. True, some other opener rebids could cause problems ... :-)

[the hog]

Quote:
"If opener rebids 2♥ with an unbalanced minimum, you might have stolen the hand. "

This is hardly likely against anyone decent. About the only thing you will have done is to let the opposition diagnose a good fit. Responding with trash is a losing tactic against any decent pair, despite what eok says.