[Flame]

I saw some players play 2D as 17+ 4441 hand or some strong NT range hand (they play 22-24 but i might play it 20-22)
I wanted to add weak in heart to this, which then give me 2h for ekrens and 2S as weak spade.
I have no problem handling the 2D with no inference since i just pass with the weak heart and bid according to the system with anything else, but how would i be over inference ? One one side the possible weak version helps because they dont know what i got but if they do enter the bidding would i be able to survive it ? How would i handle 4441 with 4 cards of their suit, 4441 and a single of thier suit and strong balance ? Double with all those three ? after say 2D-2S-P-3S/4S.

[hrothgar]

what you are proposing is VERY similar to traditional multi strucutres where 2♦ =

weak 2 in either major OR
strong 4441 OR
some strong NT range

Find a good writeup on multi and it should give you the info you want...

[Echognome]

I don't think 2♥ showing both majors is the best system personally. It works well against the lower levels of competition (but so do a lot of things). The problem is what does responder do after it goes 2♥ - (Dbl for penalties) with equal length in the majors and a bad hand. You cannot use redouble as you're pushing yourself up a level to play in just a doubled contract. I personally prefer to use 2♣ for my weak hands with both majors as I can then use 2♦ to ask partner to bid his longer major in constructive auctions for the partscore. You can also play in ANY suit after a double.

2♣ - (X) - ?
Pass = clubs
XX = bid your longer major
2♦ = natural
2♥/2♠ = preference

2♦ used for Ekren is at least an improvement over 2♥. I wouldn't worry about the strong Roman hands too much. I don't like the 17+ range either as you are committed to 2NT at least even over partner's weak hands. Just bid them as naturally as you can and don't worry too much about them as they don't come up very often. The preempts will come up more often and at least you can play them non-forcing.

By the way, I do like the multi but would play the strong roman hands as 20-24 if including those. Then you can play Muiderberg 2♥ and 2♠.

[Free]

Why do you think 2♦ Ekren is better than 2♥? It doesn't make much sense.

I've been playing 2♥ as weak with both Majors and it works VERY well! Most important part: it's NON-FORCING. When preempting, you don't want to give opponents 2 rounds to come in the bidding, you want to put the pressure high - which is exactly what you do with NF bids. Using 2-way bids doesn't allow you to pass. 2♣ isn't passable, where 2♥, even with a very poor hand and no ♥ fit can be passed when NV. Opps get pressure all over the place! Also, after 2♣ and 2♦ opponents get 2 cuebids, after a 2♥ opening they only have a Double and a 2♠ cuebid available.
Constructive bidding after these is very easy, so no real difference there.

Ok, I admit, we've played in a 4-3 fit when we had a 5-3 available, but I don't see how a 2♦ opening gets to the 5-3 fit if responder bids the other Major. ONLY in those situations a 2♣ opener has the advantage.

[hrothgar]

Echognome, on Aug 14 2005, 11:44 PM, said:

I don't think 2♥ showing both majors is the best system personally. It works well against the lower levels of competition (but so do a lot of things). The problem is what does responder do after it goes 2♥ - (Dbl for penalties) with equal length in the majors and a bad hand. You cannot use redouble as you're pushing yourself up a level to play in just a doubled contract.

You and Free both raise valid points:

1. If you open 2♣ or even 2♦ with both majors, you are much better positioned if their is a penalty double. There are any number of run out schemes that can be employed to ensure that you scramble into your best major suit fit.

2. If you open 2♥ with both majors you place mcuh more pressure on the opponents since they can't employ defenses based on "Pass and then..."

In my experience, point 2 is the more important 1. If the opps are able to catch us with a double, we're probably going to get a bad board regardless of whether we're in our best fit. Much better to make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

[Echognome]

I understand Free's and Richard's opinions, however my experience has been the opposite. I played 2♥ Ekren for about 2 years and have played 2♣ Ekren for about 1 year. I found that either bid is most effective when partner can raise the preempt. This is irrelevant to the method you use. However, when you are playing teams, going for a number is never a good thing and sometimes teammates are not as understanding. Perhaps it's better to play 2♥ Ekren at MPs and 2♣ or 2♦ at IMPs?

[hrothgar]

Echognome, on Aug 15 2005, 05:19 AM, said:

I understand Free's and Richard's opinions, however my experience has been the opposite. I played 2♥ Ekren for about 2 years and have played 2♣ Ekren for about 1 year. I found that either bid is most effective when partner can raise the preempt.

Another (slight) disagreement. Marty Bergen once said that his best results when preempting came on the hands where he didn't buy the auction and I agree strongly.

From my perspective, I'm happiest on auctions like the following

2♦ - (2♠) - X

or

2♦ - (P) - P - (3♣)
P - (3N) - P [or better yet double)

Nothing that I love more than a competitive auction ending in a penalty double.

Here, once again, the "natural" opening is a big winner. The added pressure that you place on the opps leaves them positioned VERY poorly in many more auctions. In turn, this leads to some juicy penalties.

[jdulmage]

mini-roman only good way to play it in my opinion.

[Flame]

imo 2H ekrens is by far supirior to 2D, it does a much better job as a premptive bid, since opponents cant bid 2H (or 2D in case of 2C ekrens) and because its not forcing , opponents cant just pass and wait for the second round (basically give them twice as much bidding space since they can divide the hands to acting immiditly and delayed action) and it free the 2d bid which could be use for more important tasks. for example if u play 2d ekrens u can play 2H 2S weak, but if u play 2H ekrens u can play 2D mukti and it leave u 2S for anything you like. So not only the bid itself is better, it also better for the intire system.

[Echognome]

Flame - I don't understand that argument at all. It depends entirely on the rest of your system. Since in my system, we have all 2-level bids available for preempts, we play 2♣ Ekren, 2♦ multi, and 2♥ and 2♠ as muiderberg.

However, in acbl land we've been playing 2♣ and 2♦ as showing 10-14 point hands with 5+ cards in the suit (for reasons of limiting nearly all of our opening bids). Thus, we only have 2♥ and 2♠ available as preempts and I see nothing better than keeping them as traditional weak 2's.

If you have 2♦, 2♥, and 2♠ available (as many pairs do), then you have plenty of choices and I'm sure many will swear by having them as traditional weak 2's. Others will say the Frelling structure is much better. I think this is largely a matter of taste or style. Chris Ryall has a great database on weak 2 bids that you may want to explore to see what structure you like best and also to see what is allowed where you play.

I understand the two bites at the cherry business, but until results show otherwise, I'll stick with what works best for me.

jdulmage - As per mini-roman, I can only say to look at the forum topic on opening 4441 hands here:

http://forums.bridge...wtopic=8255&hl=

and especially the great article by Jeff Goldsmith on the mini-roman, which I will re-link here:

http://www.gg.caltec...ml/rubicon.html

[whereagles]

The Erken major 2-suiter is best played in 2♥ or 2♣.

Advantages of 2♣: pard can bid 2♦ to ask for the better major. Makes sure you play the 5-2 or 5-3 fit instead of the 4-3.

Advantages of 2♥: makes the bid non-forcing, thus increases the pressure on 2nd player A LOT.

Playing 2♦ as majors has none of these advantages. 2♦ as majors should only be done if you absolutely need the bid and can't dump it somewhere else.

[Free]

Before we played moscito, we also had the entire 2-level available for preempts. We played 2m as 44+m-M, 2♥ as 44+♠-♥ and 2♠ as weak with 5+♠. I can assure you, that 2♣ opening is one of the best I've ever played! The entire structure was VERY frequent, NF, and got us in very nice and playable contracts.

Now we only have 2♦ and 2M available, so the 2♣ opening fell away. We kept the other openings (again because of the frequency). Imo a weak-2 in ♥ is hardly a preempt, so we don't play these anymore. These days people can also defend properly against multi, but ok, many people just need to bid with a 6 card at 2-level

And for once, I completely agree with whereagles

[Flame]

Echognome, on Aug 21 2005, 04:49 AM, said:

Flame - I don't understand that argument at all. It depends entirely on the rest of your system. Since in my system, we have all 2-level bids available for preempts, we play 2♣ Ekren, 2♦ multi, and 2♥ and 2♠ as muiderberg.

It doesnt matter what system you play, a bid of 2d or 2c "costs" more then a bid of 2H, because its lower, you can attach more hand types to it and will hve more space to expolre it this is a mtematical fact. my 2d 2h 2s was just an example.

[luke warm]

i use 2c as the 3 suited hand (11-16), 2d as weak in a major or 20, 21 balanced, 2h/2s are 11-15 one suited... seems to work ok

[jdulmage]

Echognome, on Aug 21 2005, 04:49 AM, said:

Flame - I don't understand that argument at all. It depends entirely on the rest of your system. Since in my system, we have all 2-level bids available for preempts, we play 2♣ Ekren, 2♦ multi, and 2♥ and 2♠ as muiderberg.

However, in acbl land we've been playing 2♣ and 2♦ as showing 10-14 point hands with 5+ cards in the suit (for reasons of limiting nearly all of our opening bids). Thus, we only have 2♥ and 2♠ available as preempts and I see nothing better than keeping them as traditional weak 2's.

If you have 2♦, 2♥, and 2♠ available (as many pairs do), then you have plenty of choices and I'm sure many will swear by having them as traditional weak 2's. Others will say the Frelling structure is much better. I think this is largely a matter of taste or style. Chris Ryall has a great database on weak 2 bids that you may want to explore to see what structure you like best and also to see what is allowed where you play.

I understand the two bites at the cherry business, but until results show otherwise, I'll stick with what works best for me.

jdulmage - As per mini-roman, I can only say to look at the forum topic on opening 4441 hands here:

http://forums.bridge...wtopic=8255&hl=

and especially the great article by Jeff Goldsmith on the mini-roman, which I will re-link here:

http://www.gg.caltec...ml/rubicon.html

LOL thanks, entertaining and informative.