[shugart24]

I don't know how to set up a survey, so I'll just ask my question. I have taught my son odd-even discards but among the disadvantages I see are a) you may not have the right card in your hand to give a signal and b) they are so common that they are easy to read by most of the opponents. I am thinking of switching over to Lavinthal discards which have neither of those disadvantages

I am curious if people agree or disagree with my thinking. What percentage of people do you think play odd-even; what percent Lavinthal;

[P_Marlowe]

shugart24, on 2025-February-03, 08:22, said:

I don't know how to set up a survey, so I'll just ask my question. I have taught my son odd-even discards but among the disadvantages I see are a) you may not have the right card in your hand to give a signal and b) they are so common that they are easy to read by most of the opponents. I am thinking of switching over to Lavinthal discards which have neither of those disadvantages

I am curious if people agree or disagree with my thinking. What percentage of people do you think play odd-even; what percent Lavinthal;

Sometimes you dont have the right card to signal, what you want to signal.
Odd / Even is obv., High / Low depends on context, what is seen.

That opponents see your signals, is true for both variants, ..., depending
on the level of opponents you are playing, I guess it may or may not matter,
but more important than that the opponents may be able to read it: your p
should be able to read it.
With odd / even you may be forced to signal something stupid, but than again
p has a brain, and sometimes, he will understand that what you signal is garbage.

In case you wonder: i play neither, I play direct discards, but those discards have
similar issues.

[jillybean]

Echo
As Marlowe says, signaling is far from perfect,you may not have the necessary cards, partner must still think.
I switched to from STD to UDCA early. I have tried the club favorites lav and o/e and quickly discarded them.
I am now playing much more (std) suit preference and it is so good, it's the only signal I want to play.

[TMorris]

I am not sure what "easy to read" has to do with it. You disclose your discard style so whatever you play your opponents can read them. If they are not up to reading your discards it most likely doesn't matter what you play.

Apart from that play what your partners ilke to play. I doubt it matters much.

I play reverse attitude with my main partner and am very happy with them. With other partners I play standard as that is what they like. Occasionally I get irritated about throwing high cards but I doubt there is much difference.

Whatever you play you need to be able to play them in tempo, even when you don't have the right card. Otherwise partner will get UI.

[awm]

Your (a) is a real problem -- basically this is an issue with a signalling system that assigns meanings to specific cards (odd cards mean one thing, even cards another) such that you might not have the card to give the signal that you want. The alternative is to assign an ordering to the cards, such that you can always signal with your "most suitable" card (for example, in upside-down attitude you might want to encourage a suit and not have any low cards, but you can always play the lowest card you have... whereas it's not clear what is the "oddest" of a bunch of even cards). This is also what leads to complaints about odd/even players having tempo issues and using tempo sometimes to (illegally) signal -- and the reason odd/even signals are forbidden in ACBL except at the first discard.

I don't think (b) is a valid reason to choose a signalling system -- you're not trying to confuse your opponents by playing signals that are unfamiliar to them (and truly encrypted signals are illegal anyway).

Anyway I do play lavinthal in all my most frequent partnerships.

[mycroft]

I would suggest that more people play Lavinthal than O/E. Although I think that's changing. Some play revolving (Lavinthal) discards; an advantage there is that you will always be able to signal the suit you want with a low card (but you may not have one in the right suit, of course!)

Anyone that can read O/E (and will find out) can read Lavinthal.

If you play a discard system based on declarer's difficulty in reading it, either you are hiding information from declarer (illegal), or playing an encrypted signal (illegal in the ACBL), or making it difficult for partner to read it too (unhelpful).

I don't play O/E or Lavinthal (or coded 9s and 10s, for that matter), because I *do* think both are too revealing to an aware declarer, and I am willing to pass less information to partner and declarer because she's good enough to not need it to be as clearly laid out. I'm certainly happy when the opponents do (when I remember to care to find out).

I think they both work better in weaker games (and by that I mean anything short of "Top Flight Pairs" in Penticton, or the Shark Tank games in cities/clubs with >6 games a week). But that's because maybe three pairs will ask, and two will read it when they find out, and the extra information you are giving to partner is just free, not because it's better, or even "better against weaker players".

[Shugart23]

mycroft, on 2025-February-03, 11:34, said:

I would suggest that more people play Lavinthal than O/E. Although I think that's changing. Some play revolving (Lavinthal) discards; an advantage there is that you will always be able to signal the suit you want with a low card (but you may not have one in the right suit, of course!)

Anyone that can read O/E (and will find out) can read Lavinthal.

If you play a discard system based on declarer's difficulty in reading it, either you are hiding information from declarer (illegal), or playing an encrypted signal (illegal in the ACBL), or making it difficult for partner to read it too (unhelpful).

I don't play O/E or Lavinthal (or coded 9s and 10s, for that matter), because I *do* think both are too revealing to an aware declarer, and I am willing to pass less information to partner and declarer because she's good enough to not need it to be as clearly laid out. I'm certainly happy when the opponents do (when I remember to care to find out).

I think they both work better in weaker games (and by that I mean anything short of "Top Flight Pairs" in Penticton, or the Shark Tank games in cities/clubs with >6 games a week). But that's because maybe three pairs will ask, and two will read it when they find out, and the extra information you are giving to partner is just free, not because it's better, or even "better against weaker players".

Probably because I am so used to, and comfortable with o/e, that when I see opponents signal with it, it is like a bright light shining on what they are doing, so I was wondering if that is a flaw with o/e. For me, I have to take an extra second to decipher whin I play opponents that play Lavinthal
. Anyway, maybe I will figure out how to take a survey and get a sense of usage. Would odd/even, standard, and Levinthal, and none of the above) be a useful survey ?

[P_Marlowe]

Shugart23, on 2025-February-03, 11:53, said:

Probably because I am so used to, and comfortable with o/e, that when I see opponents signal with it, it is like a bright light shining on what they are doing, so I was wondering if that is a flaw with o/e. For me, I have to take an extra second to decipher whin I play opponents that play Lavinthal
. Anyway, maybe I will figure out how to take a survey and get a sense of usage. Would odd/even, standard, and Levinthal, and none of the above) be a useful survey ?

My question would be, what does standard stand for? I would assume standard is an attitude, and not a McKenny signal.

[mycroft]

Yes, "first discard is attitude" (standard or UD) for that suit. Doesn't say anything about any other suit.