[jillybean]

Here's a good hand from our game today, the dealing machine has seen an end to those boring 4333 hands.

You are playing teams.

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Please explain your bid and your thinking.

[mw64ahw]

This looks like one of those hands where opener's 2nd suit may help to define what contract you want to be in. I can show this 3-card raise via 1♥-2♦. Now opener breaks the transfer with a game try opposite a constructive hand or bids 2♥ otherwise.

After a 2♥ bid 2♠ can ask for the 2nd suit. With ♦ or a balanced hand I'll look to play in 3N, ♣s or ♥ 4♥ and ♠ 4♠.

[smerriman]

As for people who play normal systems, if you bid 1♠, you're going to face an awkward situation if you hear 2♦ where you have to jump to game or make a space consuming 3♣. Or you can start with 2♣ and then support hearts, if you haven't already made 2♣ and its followups so artificial that it can't include this type of heart support.

[mikeh]

smerriman, on 2025-January-22, 23:40, said:

As for people who play normal systems, if you bid 1♠, you're going to face an awkward situation if you hear 2♦ where you have to jump to game or make a space consuming 3♣. Or you can start with 2♣ and then support hearts, if you haven't already made 2♣ and its followups so artificial that it can't include this type of heart support.

You’ve never heard of 1H 1S 2D 3H? Or do you play that as forcing?

[smerriman]

I have heard of that series of 4 bids, and I play it as invitational.

[mike777]

Will chicken out and start with 2C, why 2c is 4+.
A minimum gf hand

[mw64ahw]

smerriman, on 2025-January-23, 00:14, said:

I have heard of that series of 4 bids, and I play it as invitational.

So it must be 1♥-1♠-2♦-3N or 4♥. I'm not sure I'd fancy 4♥ when opener has a bare minimum.

[mw64ahw]

smerriman, on 2025-January-22, 23:40, said:

As for people who play normal systems, if you bid 1♠, you're going to face an awkward situation if you hear 2♦ where you have to jump to game or make a space consuming 3♣. Or you can start with 2♣ and then support hearts, if you haven't already made 2♣ and its followups so artificial that it can't include this type of heart support.

I started playing with a standard American approach, but I think it's fairly normal to evolve your bidding as you gain experience and upgrade precision. Much of what I have upgraded to has been taken from experts. I still see many club players using Acol, sometimes with strong 2s, but more frequently with 2 strong bids. While this may be normal I often see 'dinosaur' comments. Personally I have found that my overall scores have improved by over 10% points, partly because better bidding has augmented my hand evaluation.

[Cyberyeti]

We start with 1♠ playing traditional methods with 2♣ not GF.

Partner can have a perfectly standard opening like A, Qxxxx, KQJx, xxx and you could conceivably find you're held to 7 or 8 tricks in hearts on a club lead with nothing breaking badly and 3N not on either. I don't want to GF at this stage but may be forced to in order to at least bid the right game if it's on.

[DavidKok]

This is one of the problems I'm happy to no longer have to deal with, playing Maas 2NT. Bundling the limit raises with minimum GF hands allows for evaluating after we have a bit more information, systemically reduces information leakage, and lets me show support right away.

In more standard 2/1 structures the limit raise, especially the 3-card limit raise, is a problem hand. You can put it in 1NT, or reserve a bid for it at the 3-level, or adapt the structure a different way to cater to it. One of the questions I always ask in a pickup partnership is their raise structure of 1M, as all approaches come with some downsides and everybody seems to play their own flavour.

On this actual start, I don't like 1♥-1♠ with a heart fit at all. There are quite a few rebids for opener over which our support becomes ambiguous, such as 2♥, 2♠, 3♣, 3♦ and 3♥. Some of these also make our strength ambiguous. I think solutions and agreements exist for all of these auctions, but in my experience most partnerships haven't discussed e.g. 1♥-1♠; 2♠-3♥, let alone the nasty nuances of 1♥-1♠; 3♦-? (probably 3♥ ambiguous, then pull to 4♥?). By contrast the 1♥-1♠; 2m auctions are easier, though here too people play different styles and approaches. I think this is also in part why some people play Kaplan Inversion - the natural start to the auction is just not that pleasant.

If the opponents interfere everything changes, though on this start sometimes for the better. It's not very likely with our decently strong flat hand, but the possibly exists.

For all those reasons I would bid 2♣, forcing to game, intending to support hearts next round in a Maasless 2/1 system. This way I get very good chances of being able to show my support and hand type (balanced raise), at the cost of slightly overvalueing the hand.
And in the future I would aim to discuss the raise structure of the major suits with partner. In general I am not a fan of bundling fit hands with non-fit hands, and I believe in showing support early to let partner re-evaluate. In my current system delayed voluntary support is always a slam try, which I feel is an acceptable cost.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-23, 04:19, said:

We start with 1♠ playing traditional methods with 2♣ not GF.

Partner can have a perfectly standard opening like A, Qxxxx, KQJx, xxx and you could conceivably find you're held to 7 or 8 tricks in hearts on a club lead with nothing breaking badly and 3N not on either. I don't want to GF at this stage but may be forced to in order to at least bid the right game if it's on.

Why I love bridge.
Find hearts, make a bunch of control bids looking for slam, sign off in 4H and go down three.
Hopefully other table is down in something or other.

[jillybean]

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These players are not playing 2/1, although some have shown an interest in learning.
If you were playing with me and bid 2♣/1♥, I would show you a 6 card heart suit.

Playing the Schuler Shift

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Information leak, we now know South is 46xx

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-January-23, 07:15, said:

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These players are not playing 2/1, although some have shown an interest in learning.
If you were playing with me and bid 2♣/1♥, I would show you a 6 card heart suit.

4S, need to practice Moysian

Anyone can play a nine card fit

[jdiana]

I would have bid 2♣ (GF) without a second thought. An interesting question is what opener's priorities are if they're 6-4 in hearts and spades. Since we systemically bypass a 4-card spade suit with a GF hand, we like for opener to show spades on their second bid. But it is kind of murky.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-January-23, 07:24, said:

4S, need to practice Moysian

Anyone can play a nine card fit

What makes you think 2♠ wasn't 4? Is every raise 3 cards?

[mike777]

 jdiana, on 2025-January-23, 07:29, said:

I would have bid 2♣ (GF) without a second thought. An interesting question is what opener's priorities are if they're 6-4 in hearts and spades. Since we systemically bypass a 4-card spade suit with a GF hand, we like for opener to show spades on their second bid. But it is kind of murky.

Good question.
Since coming back, Schuler Shift being the major change I made, away from full Bergen style.
If I understand it correctly 2S rebid would promise non minimum. Otherwise with 6H rebid 2NT, not 2H.
Unless all 6-4 hands are non minimum?? 😊

[mw64ahw]

Coming back to my https://bridgewinner...us-2c-response/ favourite, which personally I find straightforward.

After a minimum 2♦ response I ask for shape via 2♥ and raise to 4♥ once 6 are shown.
If 4♠ are shown via 2♥ then there is plenty of space to resolve strength and shape, which may/may not result in a slam.
Any other bid and it's worth investigating slam.

[Cyberyeti]

After 1♥-1♠-2♠ I bid 3♥ just in case partner has a 36(13) and has decided 2♠ is a better bid than 2♥, partner can bid his choice of games.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-23, 08:52, said:

After 1♥-1♠-2♠ I bid 3♥ just in case partner has a 36(13) and has decided 2♠ is a better bid than 2♥, partner can bid his choice of games.

Hopefully at the club it does not go PASS

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2025-January-23, 09:09, said:

Hopefully at the club it does not go PASS

Forcing to me and partner, if it isn't I can bid 4♥ or better 3♣which is clearly forcing.