[mike777]

Imps Both NV

P=1H=P=?

Txxxx..VOID...Txxxx..xxx

[apollo1201]

Undoubled NV tricks are cheap. And they might save us by bidding something. If it goes X pass pass, time to think.

Yes, in an ideal world, you bid 1S, they pass throughout, and you rebid 2S over partner s 1NT and concede 100 when teammates are +400. But most of the times, partner bids 2NT or 3H (or worse) and will not like dummy.

The ideal world happened to me once on a slightly stronger hand (QJ 5th void 3 small 5 small) but it was a weak field.

[Cyberyeti]

Playing what I think you play, pass, playing what I play, 1♠.

[jillybean]

---

When I pickup this hand I am already thinking what my response will be to an opening bid, I now pass in tempo.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-10, 08:39, said:

Playing what I think you play, pass, playing what I play, 1♠.

alerted?

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2025-January-10, 08:45, said:

alerted?

nope, for some reason I don't believe it needs to be here, I know 1♣-P-1♥ wasn't alertable on xxx, xxxx, xx, xxxx.

[mike777]

Thank you for the responses so far, appreciated.

I encourage more exposition.

I post this hand type under interesting hands but it really qualifies as fascinating for me.

One more reason to love this game, discuss bridge, debate it and learn new viewpoints

The posters here in the forums are very sharp, really informed and always interesting..

[Cyberyeti]

More exposition, 3433 or 44(32) 15-19 is quite a likely hand shape in my system of 4M weak NT, and 3♠ will play better than 1♥ most of the time

If partner has a strong NT 15-19 without 4♠ I can bid 2♦ over it which shows a heap with 5 spades and 4-5 diamonds

[mw64ahw]

Pass.
I can show 5+ ♠, but with a void in ♥ what is the likelihood opener rebids them?

[jdiana]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-10, 09:16, said:

nope, for some reason I don't believe it needs to be here, I know 1♣-P-1♥ wasn't alertable on xxx, xxxx, xx, xxxx.

Under the ACBL's rules, I think these bids would only be alertable if they're not forcing. It's kind of interesting that there are no alert requirements based on strength (or lack thereof). Playing online, I think it would be good sportsmanship to say "could have 0 points" if that's your agreement.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-10, 09:40, said:

More exposition, 3433 or 44(32) 15-19 is quite a likely hand shape in my system of 4M weak NT, and 3♠ will play better than 1♥ most of the time

If partner has a strong NT 15-19 without 4♠ I can bid 2♦ over it which shows a heap with 5 spades and 4-5 diamonds

Have you taken this analysis further, deeper, wider?
For example,
With a void in partner's opening one level suit, never pass?

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2025-January-10, 09:43, said:

Pass.
I can show 5+ ♠, but with a void in ♥ what is the likelihood opener rebids them?

I am not a mathematician but the calculations should be doable.
Say approximately 45%

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2025-January-10, 11:31, said:

Have you taken this analysis further, deeper, wider?
For example,
With a void in partner's opening one level suit, never pass?

We don't bid 1N as light as this (or obviously at the 2 level), we don't play WJS so it has to be biddable at the one level for a start

[mikeh]

I bid 1S.

Yes, this could lead to disaster. All kinds of horrible things could happen, usually when partner has extras. But:

1. Passing gives the opps too much information and too much room.They know I have a very weak hand and LHO has an easy way into the auction, by any number of means. When one responds, LHO is in a far more precarious position, especially if he has heart length. If I pass and the doubling starts (RHO might have a stack of hearts) they’ll usually be able to judge well after my pass and then running.

2. While partners are well known for their tendency to hold no fit for us and to make a rebid that leaves us nauseous, every now and then they pleasantly surprise us. Heck, even a 2C rebid would likely get us to a better spot (2C) than 1H, and rebids of 1N (I’d puppet to 2D and pass) or a spade raise will be just fine. Even 2N….if one has methods….I play transfers there so would end up in 3D, for better or for worse, but quite likely no worse than 1H. If you don’t have methods over 2N, then that militates slightly against bidding, since now 2N is likely a catastrophe. But maybe he won’t bid 2N.

3. I’m happy to be non-vulnerable. That helps make passing more attractive but, imo, it even more helps make bidding the right action. Bear in mind that both opps will think I have at least some values. If and when I pass or sign off in a partscore, they’ll usually be reluctant to double for penalties especially if my 1S shuts out LHO on the first round.


Btw, it’s important to do one’s best to make these decisions in tempo. That can be a challenge but taking forever to bid here and then insta-passing later gives the opps useful information (bad for you) and may also let partner in on the nature of your hand (hopefully partner is ethical and bends over backwards to prevent that from influencing him, but even honest players sometimes…regrettably often, imo….take actions influenced by the UI you’ve conveyed). Fortunately you have a little time unless RHO insta passes.

[jillybean]

How does this fit with the Laws ( ACBL), Is it considered a psych ?

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-January-11, 13:09, said:

How does this fit with the Laws ( ACBL), Is it considered a psych ?

You could probably phrase that better as "How does this fit with the interpretation of the Laws by the RA (in this case ACBL)?".
No idea, but if an experienced and ethical player like mikeh sees no problem then it probably is kosher for them.
Over here it would be considered a psych or a failure to alert, according to the agreement and explanation that emerges.

[As an aside, I do wonder if people's hand evaluation is being skewed by the BBO hand diagram heading both suits "10" (with the zero kerned too) such that they look like 6+ cards each. One tries to compensate, but T7532 T8653 - 754 would be more sobering.]

[mikeh]

Psyches may be frowned upon by many, definitely including various governing bodies, but they are absolutely legal and the game would be much the worse were that not true. Unfortunately for those of us inclined to psych (which I do rarely compared to when I was much younger) people have been poisoned partly by a natural, but imo unwarranted, resentment when someone psyches successfully but also, legitimately, by unethical players who field their partner’s psyche without a good bridge reason to do so.


What’s a good bridge reason?

Say partner opens 1D in first seat at favourable. Your RHO doubles. You bid 1S with your five spades and 9 hcp and LHO leaps to 3N. So unless LHO has lost his mind, he has at least close to opening values and RHO, red v white, will have close to an opening hand and usually better. Give them each 11 hcp….and I’d bet they have more than a combined 22. Partner simply can’t have a real opening bid.

Doubling ‘because you opened and I have 9 hcp’ is silly. You’re not ‘fielding the psyche’ due to hidden reasons…you’re fielding it because the opps have made it abundantly clear that partner psyched.

A couple of years ago in an online match I was morally certain that partner had psyched but I was able to construct a minimum opening hand for him (barely) consistent with both opps stretching a modest amount. I felt unable to pass since, opposite a minimum opening hand, the opps were never going to make and could be down 3. So I doubled, knowing that I was almost surely booting 5-7 imps.

If you can’t do things like that , you have no business psyching.

Here, in no way is my choice of 1S going to be read by partner as being literally a zero count unless and until the opps make it clear even to the hypothetical non-bridge playing janitor that I must have a bust….even then he won’t play me for a real zero count. Btw, on our CC we disclose light opening's and an expected minimum hcp for a response as ‘3’. I not think any good player would think I was doing anything unethical or illegal by bidding 1S.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2025-January-11, 17:45, said:

Btw, on our CC we disclose light opening's and an expected minimum hcp for a response as ‘3’. I not think any good player would think I was doing anything unethical or illegal by bidding 1S.

Mike obviously isn't your average club player. I would consider a response on 0 as opposed to '3' a deviation, not a psych. Not so for your average club player who may have '6' on his CC, oh wait, what CC? Nor would I have as much confidence that such a bid would not be fielded by a club player, or a player with fewer ethical constraints.
When there is any history it is difficult to avoid acting on that knowledge.

For your average player, bidding on this zero count, zero fit for partner I think would be clasified as a psych, and while legal, must be treated as such.
I have no objection to psychs, although I "never" encounter them. I did try them myself when I discovered that they were indeed legal but that didn't last long.

[awm]

I would question whether this is really a psych rather than just an agreement not to pass 1X with a five-card major and shortness somewhere. It seems like a lot of good players bid like this routinely, which is fine, but disclosure could be better.