[mayoutu]

This is a problem from Bridgeworld.com. The bidding is:

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Here, 3D is transfer to hearts, and 4D shows 5-4 or more in the red suits. My question is, if I bid 4NT or even 5NT grand force, which suit is the trump suit? Some books say the last bid suit is the trump suit. If diamonds are trumps, then it is impossible to know whether partner has the king of hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

Firstly, what is 2♦ ? assume waiting

Secondly, do you have any reason to think partner is any better than xxx, J109xx, Jxxx, Kx where you have no 5 level safety.

The 2N bidder has no reason to Blackwood here as you have no reason to go beyond 4♥ if partner doesn't. Just bid 4♥, if partner bids on you're golden.

[mike777]

This is really a question of captaincy not what is the trump suit. Trick question.
South rebid 2NT which limited and defined their hand.
North has not limited their hand. That makes North captain.
In other words South do not bid 4NT or 5NT, you are not in charge, you are not the boss, you are not the Captain.

[mw64ahw]

I alleviate this issue by playing it as a cue for ♥. If I have 5♥4♠ then I transfer and bid 3N. This leaves 3♠ as a relay to 3N and I can then show a minor. With ♥ support opener won't complete the relay. 4/5♥5♠ go through 3♣

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-24, 10:31, said:

I alleviate this issue by playing it as a cue for ♥. If I have 5♥4♠ then I transfer and bid 3N. This leaves 3♠ as a relay to 3N and I can then show a minor. With ♥ support opener won't complete the relay. 4/5♥5♠ go through 3♣

This is the natural bidding forum, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Do you bid a 4-5 card minor when you fail to complete the relay because you have 3 card hearts ?

[awm]

Our agreement is that a good hand for slam in hearts is supposed to super-accept the transfer (even with three-card support). This rarely gets us in trouble and simplifies the subsequent auction. By simply accepting the transfer, opener denies holding a good hand for slam in hearts (this can be doubleton heart, or slow cards, or just very minimum). After the 4♦ bid, opener's calls are:

1. 4♥ shows a preference (usually three-card support, rarely Hx) but not a good hand for slam in hearts.
2. 4♠ is a cuebid for diamonds (showing a good hand for slam in diamonds).
3. 4NT is a suggestion to play, with no fit for either suit and typically a stack of honors in the other suits.
4. 5♣ (rare) is a cuebid for diamonds with no spade control.

On this hand I would've super-accepted with a 3♠ cue.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-December-24, 10:52, said:

This is the natural bidding forum, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Do you bid a 4-5 card minor when you fail to complete the relay because you have 3 card hearts ?

No I wouldn't bother to to show the minor if a Major suit fit is found.
W.R.T natural bidding neither 4/5N are suggested as being natural, nor are transfers.

[smerriman]

If you bid 4nt, you are suggesting there is no trump suit.

If you bid 5nt, the trump suit is the one you'll be facing when partner takes you to court..

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-24, 12:03, said:

No I wouldn't bother to to show the minor if a Major suit fit is found.
W.R.T natural bidding neither 4/5N are suggested as being natural, nor are transfers.

5N doesn't exist in this sequence, 4N is natural but probably unwise

[apollo1201]

It (highly) dépends on whether 3H is forced or not, or on would partner bid 2H rather tjhan 2D with xx AKxxx Jxxx xx (add a black Q if you want).

Let s say we have no agreement. So we have to improvise.

We have to remark that partner went above 3NT despite not being sure of a fit. So they cannot be min min given they can afford to risk playing 4NT. With the lousy hand Cyber posted (even lousier as with 14 cards it is still not really exciting), you bid 3NT above a forced 3H. No other game except 4H should partner be fitted seems realsitic.

That being said, in that context, 4NT by opener is definitely a rejection of responder s suits. Lots of black honors and no fit / little fillers for red suits. We are not going anywhere.

Here we have a good hand but could be off one KC in H + a black suit loser. In 6D though if partner has 3S and 1C, we can probably discard a S from hand in 6D on dummy s H.

[Cyberyeti]

apollo1201, on 2024-December-24, 16:17, said:

It (highly) dépends on whether 3H is forced or not, or on would partner bid 2H rather tjhan 2D with xx AKxxx Jxxx xx (add a black Q if you want).

Let s say we have no agreement. So we have to improvise.

We have to remark that partner went above 3NT despite not being sure of a fit. So they cannot be min min given they can afford to risk playing 4NT. With the lousy hand Cyber posted (even lousier as with 14 cards it is still not really exciting), you bid 3NT above a forced 3H. No other game except 4H should partner be fitted seems realsitic.

That being said, in that context, 4NT by opener is definitely a rejection of responder s suits. Lots of black honors and no fit / little fillers for red suits. We are not going anywhere.

Here we have a good hand but could be off one KC in H + a black suit loser. In 6D though if partner has 3S and 1C, we can probably discard a S from hand in 6D on dummy s H.

Sorry about the 14th card.

We need to know whether partner had a 2♥ bust available. If not then 4N doesn't exist, partner can easily hold a yarborough 5-5 or 5-6 and on that 5♦ could be the only game, but 4♥ could still be right even when partner doesn't realise that.

I agree with you that whether partner bids a positive with that hand is important, or xx, AJ10xx, Jxxx, Kx or if your suit positives require 2 of the top 3.

[mikeh]

Let’s start with a simple but basic question. What kind of hand/suits should 4D imply?

Suggestions that he could be 2=5=4=2 with Jack high red suits strike me a misguided. I hold xx J10xxx J10xx Kx and see 2C 2D 2N 3D 3H. Wtf am I doing suggesting a high level diamond contract? What is it about my hand that makes me think ‘3N will be a silly contract if I bid 3N and partner passes’? Or that ‘if partner has 4 diamonds and 2 hearts, let’s play 5D rather than 3N’?

I respectfully suggest that showing a red two suiter implies either extreme shape and/or enough hcp to make 4N safe should partner bid that over 4D and slam good if partner likes his hand in context.

I have an incredible hand opposite any plausible hand for responder. As others have noted, much depends on how good his heart suit could be…more accurately, how weak will it be? Many play that responder’s 2D denies a suit as good as AKxxx.if that’s the case for this partnership then grand is no longer an adoption but something like x AJxxx Jxxxx Kx makes for an excellent slam….I’d play in diamonds rather than hearts at imps but probably choose 6H at mps.

So….right now I don’t think we can or should try to answer the OP question about what is trump. We can’t bid 4N….one of these days everyone is going to realize that it’s insane to have the limited hand launch into keycard at every possible opportunity even when the partnership needs 4N to be natural. I know…I’m beating a dead horse but wtf do you want opener to rebid over 4D with AKJx Qx Axx AKQx?

Anyway, in my partnerships, fwiw, responder can hold AKJxx in hearts. In my main partnership we have a complex set of responses but we do not show a normal suit positive…we bid 2D to allow opener to describe his hand economically. In my other partnership, we can show AKxxx in hearts via 2N (a positive in a major…3C asks responder to transfer) but we don’t do it on complex hands. AKxxx J10xxx in the reds is too complex…we’d bid 2D.

That’s by way of a sidenote. Right now, my job is to tell partner I love my hand. 4N is silly for the reasons set out above: it says I dislike both red suits. 4H is how I’d bid a blah 4333 type of hand with 3+ hearts…it can be passed and, far from saying I love my hand, says I have no slam ideas.

So I have to make a forward going bid, which pretty much has to be 4S.

Over this, in my main partnership, 4N is six card keycard, for both reds, with diamonds (the last naturally bid suit) as the key suit in terms of showing queens. But most players don’t use 6CKC, so responder’s 4N is probably, for most, simple keycard for diamonds.

This may make it difficult for responder to count tricks since he may be unable to identify the heart queen in our hand, but it probably won’t matter for small slam purposes…we’ll play 6D.

One alternative for opener, over 4D, is 5N. This is NOT a form of grand slam force. Opportunities for GSF are virtually non-existent since the advent of exclusion keycard. 5N pick a slam is pretty much universal amongst expert pairs. This does require recognition that responder can’t have a piece of crap for his 4D bid. He definitely ought not to be Jxxxx Jxxxx in the reds, and Jxxxxx Jxxxx should simply bid 4D over 2N and pass 4H. So I’d expect the worst situation to be something like x Axxxx Jxxxx Kx. Now slam (in diamonds) is basically 50%. Any slam that rates to be no worse than 50% should be bid.