[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2024-December-19, 04:30, said:

Yes. If this had been my hand we would have opened 1nt

We would open 1N. Our system over 1♣ is predicated on it showing 4 in a weak NT context so can't just be used to bid these allowing for change of strength.

Slam is good but not great on a diamond lead, and 6♣ is better than 6♠ which may be difficult to diagnose.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-December-19, 08:27, said:

Slam is good but not great on a diamond lead, and 6♣ is better than 6♠ which may be difficult to diagnose.

2-2 trumps or ♥K onside seems like plenty to me, quite aside from any more advanced line that might be available. Diagnosing the fact that the club fit is 9 cards is absolutely critical to bidding this confidently imho. There are plenty of ways of achieving that but it becomes much more difficult if you agree spades early, which many systems will.

[mikeh]

Ok, we play weird stuff over 10-13 1N. Here’s our auction….it’s definitely esoteric.

1N. 2D. 1N 10-13, 2D gf relay
2H. 2S. 2H denies 4+ hearts or 5m. 2S relay
3N. 4C. 3N exactly 4=3=3=3. 4C puppet to 4D preparatory to sign off
4H. Super maximum in context

Now responder does have to guess. 6C looks like a plausible guess….even with xxxx KQx AKx Jxx we’re making 6C about half the time. As for spades or clubs….it’s easy to see that clubs will almost never play worse than spades and may be much better. Picture something like Qxxx Kxx AJx QJx. You could suffer a club ruff in spades but 6C is odds on…sure, they might manoeuvre a spade ruff but that’s not as likely as a club ruff, playing in spades.

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2024-December-18, 17:31, said:

In your auction North is not aware of the double fit, North knows almost nothing other than South is gf and 4S and North has poor spade suit..
South knows North has 2clubs and 4S, that's all.

You seem to believe you understand our system better than I do, for some reason.
South has shown 5 clubs, North can count.

[mike777]

pescetom, on 2024-December-18, 16:17, said:

I realise that Italian methods are not mainstream (but then neither is T-Walsh yet) but we play 1♣-2♣ as a game force, despite the 1♣ opening being 2+ cards and a 2♣ response not guaranteeing clubs.
So this would start:

1♣ - 2♣
2♠ - 3♠
?

Now trumps are set, North is aware of the double fit and some extra strength in South and will bid a control, unless his spades suggest non-serious.

Per this explanation South had not promised any clubs.
I don't see where it was explained South promised five clubs?

[mike777]

Difficult hand certainly for intermediate level players.
bidding might go:

1C-1S
2S-3C!
3D!-3H
4C-4NT?
5S-7S?

3C is long suit game, might be advanced cue
3D is game try, btw does not promise AD, so beware if slamming...risky

3H is cue at this point, slam interest, partner pls cue if possible.
4C-cue
4NT risky here...
over 5s I might gamble out 7s as opener is at worst Axx in clubs but I don't have tools to find out more about club holdings.
I took some risks in the bidding so Understand if we stop in game..

However, I believe the biggest lesson by far is to trust intermediate level players learn that partner will not rush to just jump to game after game tries...

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2024-December-19, 13:53, said:

Ok, we play weird stuff over 10-13 1N. Here’s our auction….it’s definitely esoteric.

1N. 2D. 1N 10-13, 2D gf relay
2H. 2S. 2H denies 4+ hearts or 5m. 2S relay
3N. 4C. 3N exactly 4=3=3=3. 4C puppet to 4D preparatory to sign off
4H. Super maximum in context

Now responder does have to guess. 6C looks like a plausible guess….even with xxxx KQx AKx Jxx we’re making 6C about half the time. As for spades or clubs….it’s easy to see that clubs will almost never play worse than spades and may be much better. Picture something like Qxxx Kxx AJx QJx. You could suffer a club ruff in spades but 6C is odds on…sure, they might manoeuvre a spade ruff but that’s not as likely as a club ruff, playing in spades.

Clubs can be worse than spades, but not if the target is 12 and the distributional hand would play either suit, on a 1N-2♣-2♠ type auction obv something like Q10xx, Qxx, Kxx, KQJ plays better from that side.

Obv Q10xx, xxx, Axx, KQJ is 13 on a 3-2 spade break, but only 12 in clubs

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2024-December-19, 14:16, said:

Per this explanation South had not promised any clubs.
I don't see where it was explained South promised five clubs?

It's an inference from the system. A 2C response in general does not promise clubs as it might be balanced or prelude a raise of opener's suit. But over 1C he would have bid a 4 card major 1/1 unless he also held a true 5 card clubs and game force strength.

[mike777]

pescetom, on 2024-December-19, 14:49, said:

It's an inference from the system. A 2C response in general does not promise clubs as it might be balanced or prelude a raise of opener's suit. But over 1C he would have bid a 4 card major 1/1 unless he also held a true 5 card clubs and game force strength.

ok, if I understand
1c-2c very often promises gf and 5+c but not 100%, there is some exception.

[jillybean]

---

I fancied, playing an old method where 1C:2C was gf , not denying a 4cM I could get to 6 but it doesn't seem possible.

The pair who gave me the hand derailed themselves trying to show club length when perhaps their best option was 1C:1S 2S:4S

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-December-19, 14:46, said:

Clubs can be worse than spades, but not if the target is 12 and the distributional hand would play either suit, on a 1N-2♣-2♠ type auction obv something like Q10xx, Qxx, Kxx, KQJ plays better from that side.

Obv Q10xx, xxx, Axx, KQJ is 13 on a 3-2 spade break, but only 12 in clubs

I hold a (nice) 13 and partner 10-13…known in my auction to be 13….I’m not the least bit worried about playing 6C on a hand where 6S is also making, lol. I would be happy playing 6C (if it made) even against a WC team….maybe I won’t win imps but I’d be surprised if I lost any. And in a mp field? You have to be kidding. 920 is beating a whole bunch of 480/510 scores, even on the last day of the Blue Ribbon Pairs let alone a more pedestrian mp field.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2024-December-19, 15:56, said:

---

I fancied, playing an old method where 1C:2C was gf , not denying a 4cM I could get to 6 but it doesn't seem possible.

The pair who gave me the hand derailed themselves trying to show club length when perhaps their best option was 1C:1S 2S:4S

I think you can get to slam with a minor suit gf bid.

1c-2d!
2nt-3C
3D-3H
4C?-4D?
4NT-6C?

2d=gf in clubs, often denies 4 card major
2nt=11-13
3c-pls cue
4D-rkc

bit pushy...

however with that Chunky(edit) 4 card spade suit I would start 1S not 2D

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2024-December-19, 16:16, said:

I hold a (nice) 13 and partner 10-13…known in my auction to be 13….I’m not the least bit worried about playing 6C on a hand where 6S is also making, lol. I would be happy playing 6C (if it made) even against a WC team….maybe I won’t win imps but I’d be surprised if I lost any. And in a mp field? You have to be kidding. 920 is beating a whole bunch of 480/510 scores, even on the last day of the Blue Ribbon Pairs let alone a more pedestrian mp field.

I got muddled, you play both suits from the wrong hand if partner has ♦Kxx, for you, clubs are better than spades. In the Stayman auction, spades can be much better as they protect the K.

It's a very good 13, AKJ, A, K is 15 for me.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2024-December-19, 16:16, said:

however with that Junky 4 card spade suit I would start 1S not 2D

I think you mean Chunky?

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2024-December-19, 15:41, said:

ok, if I understand
1c-2c very often promises gf and 5+c but not 100%, there is some exception.

2C always imposes a gf over any 1 level opening (even 1C-2C is considered a 2/1, just like 2C over a higher ranking suit) and can be fit (with even 0 clubs, but not of course if opener has clubs) or balanced (so 2+ clubs, but in this case without a 4cM that would have precedence) or a natural 5+ suit.
So if spades pop up after 1C-2C, it must have been the natural 5+ suit.

[DavidKok]

Sorry in advance for being blunt. I've kept out of this thread because I disagree with a lot of the posted suggestions, not just regarding the system but especially regarding the hand evaluation and priorities in the auction. I think mikeh's auction is one of the few plausible ones shared so far, though I do not like the methods. But they are complete, consistent and explained well.

To the rest I want to ask the following question: when partner opens 1♣, do you have a minimum game force, a slam try or a slam force in your hand? And, conditional on finding a 4-4 spade fit as well as conditional on not finding one, which final contract(s) do you wish to explore? What information do you need to make that decision?

[jillybean]

When partner opens 1C, I know we have game, when we uncover the spade fit I can consider 6 or 7
(yes, it looks slammish but with the style of openings today, I am treading carefully)

However I don’t know how, nor have the methods to get there.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2024-December-20, 04:15, said:

When partner opens 1C, I know we have game, when we uncover the spade fit I can consider 6 or 7

However I don't know how, nor have the methods to get there.

I think this is the case for the majority of players. Even when you have the methods it relies on partner to be sufficiently in tune and prepared to invest time in moving beyond standard approaches. And then get it correct at the table!
I posted a solution above, but almost guaranteed, once the ♠ fit is found that will be the trump suit. From experience many at a local level will stop in 4♠, and a few will venture further.

[mike777]

Even as an intermediate level player,
Relying on intermediate level tools such as adjusted losing trick count a club slam is immediately in the picture after a one club opening.
That South hand is huge.
I am thinking small slam in clubs from the get go, grand not out of the picture..
But small slam yes..

[pescetom]

We know from the beginning we have slam interest, the contracts we wish to explore are a function of the further information we obtain about opener's hand.
The most obvious slam contracts are in clubs, but if a 4-4 spade fit emerges I want to bid there rather than in clubs, for multiple reasons (which does not exclude partner pulling a spades slam to NT if it seems sensible looking at ♣QJ).
I will pay out (probably not much, at MP) if it turns out the only grand was in clubs and we stopped in 6S/NT.