[rynos]

My partner and I had this deal and missed our spade game after 1D-1S-2C-2D-P. We play standard but 2C bid can is wide ranging as 3C game forcing. We play fourth suit game forcing. We both put each other in the wrong on this one, so without adding any bias I was wondering how others would bid this hand?

Dealer N (opener)
♠ A84
♥ K
♦ KQ532
♣ A982

Partner S (responder)
♠ KQJ65
♥ Q874
♦ J98
♣ 7

[jillybean]

I assume your auction started 1♦
I dont think it's easy to get to game.
1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♦ kills the auction
1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠ 3♠ probably gets you to 3nt or 4♠

[mike777]

Baring opening an off shape 1NT
And Baring a gadget such as "reverse flannery" by responder, which was invented for just this exact problem, that leaves another solution.

Raising one spade to 2 Spades with only 3 Spades and this shape.

Please notice how the point of all three suggestions above focus on the major suits at the expense of minor suits.

A plug for reverse flannery my choice:
1minor=2 hearts, shows about 8-11 and 5S and 4H.

[akwoo]

Dealer has a 16 count, even if it contains a singleton K. It's worth a 3rd bid. So I think it should go 1D-1S-2C-2D-2S. Now I think responder is worth a further invite, and dealer with all primes can go to game.

So 1D-1S-2C-2D-2S-3S-4S.

[bluenikki]

rynos, on 2024-December-02, 22:21, said:

My partner and I had this deal and missed our spade game after 1D-1S-2C-2D-P. We play standard but 2C bid can is wide ranging as 3C game forcing. We play fourth suit game forcing. We both put each other in the wrong on this one, so without adding any bias I was wondering how others would bid this hand?

Dealer N (opener)
♠ A84
♥ K
♦ KQ532
♣ A982

Partner S (responder)
♠ KQJ65
♥ Q874
♦ J98
♣ 7

Alvin Roth pontificated that opener should always plan a rebid after 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ - 2♦.

If no such rebid is palatable, rebid 1NT or 2♦ instead of 2♣. But in this case, 2♠ is palatable.

By the way, why didn't responder jump-prefer diamonds?

[mw64ahw]

bluenikki, on 2024-December-03, 06:45, said:

By the way, why didn't responder jump-prefer diamonds?

Does the bidding sequence guarantee 5♦ or can it be 1444?

Flannery is one way to solve the issue; playing an unbalanced ♦ makes this a non-issue for me.

[Tramticket]

 rynos, on 2024-December-02, 22:21, said:

My partner and I had this deal and missed our spade game after 1D-1S-2C-2D-P.

The auction started ok. But after the 2D preference bid I would now show my three-card spade support and bid 2S. Yes. It might be a 4-3 fit, but there is no guarantee of a diamond fit and spades might easily play better and/or score better. Once North shows delayed spade support it is easy enough to find the game.

[akwoo]

bluenikki, on 2024-December-03, 06:45, said:

Alvin Roth pontificated that opener should always plan a rebid after 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ - 2♦.

If no such rebid is palatable, rebid 1NT or 2♦ instead of 2♣. But in this case, 2♠ is palatable.

By the way, why didn't responder jump-prefer diamonds?

In at least some versions of Kaplan-Sheinwold (note: weak NT and sound 1m openings), the 2♣ and 3♣ rebids are flipped - 3♣ is non-forcing and shows a minimum hand with both minors, usually 5-5, while 2♣ shows mild extras (about 14+) and is forcing (and in some rare cases doesn't have clubs).

[bluenikki]

akwoo, on 2024-December-03, 14:01, said:

In at least some versions of Kaplan-Sheinwold (note: weak NT and sound 1m openings), the 2♣ and 3♣ rebids are flipped - 3♣ is non-forcing and shows a minimum hand with both minors, usually 5-5, while 2♣ shows mild extras (about 14+) and is forcing (and in some rare cases doesn't have clubs).

Not so rare. With 3=3=6=1, 15-21, after 1♦ - 1♠ - ? you bid 2♥. But with 3=1=6=3 you are stuck with 2♣.

[bluenikki]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-03, 11:15, said:

Does the bidding sequence guarantee 5♦ or can it be 1444?

If the 1=4=4=4 opener is strong, they can handle the jump-preference. If not strong, that's the risk they took when they didn't rebid 1NT.

[rynos]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-03, 11:15, said:

Does the bidding sequence guarantee 5♦ or can it be 1444?

Flannery is one way to solve the issue; playing an unbalanced ♦ makes this a non-issue for me.

It could be 1444 but most of the time I would assume 5 diamonds. Responder jump support in diamonds would be encouraging opener toward 3NT with coverage in unbid suit so probably a little shy on points/tricks.

Such a wide range of bidding and different conventions people play in the comments! Our discussion was North said 2D was simple suit preference and kills the auction. South said 2D gives North a chance to bid 3 card spade suit and they are allowed to keep bidding with top end values.

[smerriman]

rynos, on 2024-December-03, 18:36, said:

Our discussion was North said 2D was simple suit preference and kills the auction.

With 3 diamonds and one club, 2♦ is an easy preference bid. However, what would they have done with, say, 2 diamonds and 3 clubs? Usually you would still give "false" preference to diamonds - specifically because you want to keep the auction alive in case opener has a stronger hand and wants to keep bidding.

So it is wrong to say that a preference bid kills the auction.

[akwoo]

rynos, on 2024-December-03, 18:36, said:

Such a wide range of bidding and different conventions people play in the comments! Our discussion was North said 2D was simple suit preference and kills the auction. South said 2D gives North a chance to bid 3 card spade suit and they are allowed to keep bidding with top end values.

2D is simple suit preference, and it denies 10 points (roughly). It is nonforcing.

However, North could have as many as a bad 18 to bid 2C, so North is allowed to bid again with 16+.

[jillybean]

Dup

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2024-December-03, 00:23, said:

Dealer has a 16 count, even if it contains a singleton K. It's worth a 3rd bid. So I think it should go 1D-1S-2C-2D-2S. Now I think responder is worth a further invite, and dealer with all primes can go to game.

So 1D-1S-2C-2D-2S-3S-4S.

How do you evaluate this stiff ♥K
I would be inclined to devalue the 4321 count, partner is not bidding hearts and consider a little more for shape. I think my hand is looking more like 14-15