[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2024-October-03, 09:17, said:

Does everyone play 5D response to 5C exclusion keycard shows 1?

o

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Nope, I think 0314 is more common

I presume 5♠ asked for the Q so pd has showed Q♥, A♣, now 6♦ would say for us "I have one of the ♦KQ, bid the grand with the other"

The question is whether you want to be in the grand if he doesn't have it. The dangerous hand is xx, KQJxx, xxxx, AQ or similar, but even then it's likely just on a finesse if the spades are not 3-3, and ♠J makes it great.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-October-03, 09:17, said:

Does everyone play 1430 response to exclusion keycard ?
I play 0,1,2 - (edited)

I suggest you respond the same way as you do in RKCB, whatever that is (and if you use 4NT as ask in hearts, then it had better be 1430).
There probably is a slight theoretical argument for 0314 in ERKCB, as there is a 1 in 3 chance that the asking strain is immediately below trumps and 0 keycards after exclusion is a realistic worst case... but I don't think it is worth the memory strain of playing multiple responses, for most pairs at least.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-October-03, 09:54, said:

I presume 5♠ asked for the Q so pd has showed Q♥, A♣, now 6♦ would say for us "I have one of the ♦KQ, bid the grand with the other"

The question is whether you want to be in the grand if he doesn't have it. The dangerous hand is xx, KQJxx, xxxx, AQ or similar, but even then it's likely just on a finesse if the spades are not 3-3, and ♠J makes it great.

I think you meant to write "so pd has showed Q♥, K♣".
Now you pinpoint my two dilemmas well.
The first was that with one partner I have the agreement that after 6♣ now 6♦ asks for the ♦K or Q, but never discussed that with this partner and he (rightly) doesn't like surprises.
The second was to imagine which hands would make (and not) without ♦K but within my limited information (♥KQ,♣K, at least 4 points elsewhere of which at most 1 in spades and 1 in diamonds)... I reasoned much like you, the spades may well behave even in the worst cases.
So I bid the grand.

[pescetom]

Here is the actual hand.

MP

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[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2024-October-03, 14:46, said:

I think you meant to write "so pd has showed Q♥, K♣".

NO, I used exclusion so ♣K is irrelevant, he hasn't shown the ace yet

Would actually have worked better if I'd started with 2♠, partner bids 3♣ and now I know he has only 4 pointy suit cards.

[mw64ahw]

mw64ahw, on 2024-October-03, 04:36, said:

4♥ is permitted denying a ♦ control.
4♦ would show a void
Higher bids show a ♦ control & KCs

Next bid would be 4N showing odd KCs and additional ♠ control plus of course a ♦ control.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-October-03, 14:24, said:

I suggest you respond the same way as you do in RKCB, whatever that is (and if you use 4NT as ask in hearts, then it had better be 1430).
There probably is a slight theoretical argument for 0314 in ERKCB, as there is a 1 in 3 chance that the asking strain is immediately below trumps and 0 keycards after exclusion is a realistic worst case... but I don't think it is worth the memory strain of playing multiple responses, for most pairs at least.

I think exclusion is so unusual, I've had no problem remembering 0,1,2.
As more brain cells vanish I may need to revert to 1430.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-October-03, 15:05, said:

Here is the actual hand.

MP

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This hand is why I keep coming back

[Tramticket]

Late to this, but here is a short auction: 1H-5NT; 7H

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2024-October-04, 00:12, said:

Late to this, but here is a short auction: 1H-5NT; 7H

Partner has void, Kxxxxxx, Kxx, AKx a) expect him to bid 7N ? b) which response do you skip ? use 5♠ for GSF

You will never bid a terrible grand but may bid a not very good one, make the ♠J10 xx and it's less good the more diamonds and the less clubs he has, also ♥J is important if trumps aren't 2-2

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-October-03, 16:07, said:

I think exclusion is so unusual, I've had no problem remembering 0,1,2.
As more brain cells vanish I may need to revert to 1430.

If you and all your partners are comfortable with playing different RKCB reply schemes in different situations, then probably a more usedul distinction is 1430 for 4NT over clubs and hearts and 0314 for all the rest (unless you are manic enough to differentiate Opener/Responder position too).
But I suggest just playing 1430 everywhere and saving the extra brain cells for Kickbacks of minors (and control-bids) instead.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-October-04, 03:36, said:

Partner has void, Kxxxxxx, Kxx, AKx a) expect him to bid 7N ? b) which response do you skip ? use 5♠ for GSF

You will never bid a terrible grand but may bid a not very good one, make the ♠J10 xx and it's less good the more diamonds and the less clubs he has, also ♥J is important if trumps aren't 2-2

I agree it isn't perfect. But it will find the Grand most of the time that it is right and keep us out of the Grand most of the times when it fails.

It doesn't rely on any complex methods - GSF is covered in my very first beginners book.

[DavidKok]

I watched this thread but was too late in commenting on it. Here's some thoughts:

The moment partner opens 1♥ there is reason to suspect that a grand slam might be on. With first round control in all suits, at least a 9 card fit, only 2.5 modified losers (2 if you adjust for the extra heart), we have a powerhouse of a hand. A different, better, way to put this is by picturing example hands. Mikeh gave some great examples of non-openings that would make a small slam OK, and partner is a lot stronger than that.
In a strange way, this is freeing. We can do any of a number of subpar options and then blast a small or grand slam and likely be fine. In a different way, this makes it very challenging. We should identify in which cases we want to not be in slam, or be in a small but not a grand slam, and then use the bidding space to find the information to distinguish between those cases.

My own methods are not great for this. I do not play J2NT, which would be great on this deal (so long as we play some modern continuations - we do not want partner jumping to show weakness). I can splinter-then-bid-again, but this comes with two downsides: 1) it puts partner in charge, which we don't want as our hand is frankly too strong for splinter-then-bid-again, and 2) it takes us past 4NT and our hand is all key cards, though this may prove to be an issue regardless of route. My own options here are 1♠ and 2♣, and I prefer the latter.

I didn't mention GSF or Exclusion above - not only do I not play them, also I think they are not the best option on this deal. We are looking for ♦K and possibly spade support, both of which are difficult to find after consuming all our bidding space. On a more timid 1♥-2♣; 3♣-3♥; 3NT (Non-serious)-4♣; 4♥ start we know that partner is missing the ♦K as well as getting more shape information, and we can still blast to slam later. Notice that knowing about partner's 3♣ implies at most four cards in the pointed suits, so we know our ♦A + ♠AKQ cover all those cards.

[mikeh]

I’d love to claim that we’d reach the laydown 7H but I’m not at all sure that we would. I think we’d know that it was anywhere from cold to ‘has play’, so I think it’d depend on responder’s mood…is he having a glass half full kind of day or glass half empty day?

1H 2N 3C 3D 3H

2N = GF raise
3C = minimum (we wouldn’t be ashamed of this hand so no 4H for us)
3D asks for shortness, 3H denies any shortness


Now I suppose 5C, exclusion, hoping next to ask about diamonds. I should note that on some hands the club ace will be the 13th trick so it’s not clear to use exclusion. But cuebidding over 3H might elicit a 4C cue n the King (or KQ) and now any keycard leads to ambiguity….are we off the heart king or the club ace?

5H 1 keycard, 5S queen ask, 6H heart queen no king of either diamonds or spades.

Now responder can assess as follows:

On a trump lead (standard v a suit grand)….declarer wins in hand, ruffs a club….now how does declarer get back to his hand, given the lack of the diamond king? Absent the spade Jack, which we can’t find out about, a trump to hand, ruff a club, and again how does he get back to his hand to draw trump?

Now, trump could be 2=2. Also he might have 6 trump. In those cases, top spades and either they run or he can ruff one and get back with the diamond. 2 ruffs, 4 spades, 5 trumps and the diamond ace. Worst case? Needs a diamond hook.

So grand will always have play but may need some luck. Given that I know of no way to identify the spade Jack….but he might have it….I can’t really estimate the odds

If playing very strong opps, I bid the grand. If playing much weaker opps, I bid the small….I’d rather lose 12 imps than 17 since we rate to win the match anyway. If-between….well, do I feel lucky?

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-October-04, 11:19, said:

I watched this thread but was too late in commenting on it. Here's some thoughts:
I didn't mention GSF or Exclusion above - not only do I not play them, also I think they are not the best option on this deal. We are looking for ♦K and possibly spade support, both of which are difficult to find after consuming all our bidding space. On a more timid 1♥-2♣; 3♣-3♥; 3NT (Non-serious)-4♣; 4♥ start we know that partner is missing the ♦K as well as getting more shape information, and we can still blast to slam later. Notice that knowing about partner's 3♣ implies at most four cards in the pointed suits, so we know our ♦A + ♠AKQ cover all those cards.

I too thought seriously about 1♠ and also 2♣ which is an option in our system (2♦ will never be 4 cards). I figured that 1♠ could work out very well but also quite badly with certain hands. Whereas 2♣ would get me more shape information in less space, as you say. But I backed off because it was going to be seriously misleading for partner and we never discussed exclusion in the 2/1 suit, albeit clubs which could be an artifice as here - and I couldn't see how I was going to disambiguate ♣A unless he happened to have the K too.

As an aside, I wouldn't bid Non-serious as South with those trump honours. Do you use it only about overall hand strength? I never convinced myself it could work well as meaning "one or both problems".

[DavidKok]

For me Non-serious 3NT means 'minimum in context for slam purposes', while bypassing it shows extra's. Having a high number of key cards or controls does contribute to this evaluation, but is not directly coded into the divide.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-October-05, 11:50, said:

For me Non-serious 3NT means 'minimum in context for slam purposes', while bypassing it shows extras.

So you take your chances in trump suit quality (pending RKCB) but not extras, whereas I take my chances in terms of extras but not trump suit quality.
Fair enough, thanks.

[akwoo]

mikeh, on 2024-October-04, 11:28, said:

If playing very strong opps, I bid the grand. If playing much weaker opps, I bid the small….I’d rather lose 12 imps than 17 since we rate to win the match anyway. If-between….well, do I feel lucky?

Let's suppose you're playing very strong opps. As you figured out, you are going to bid the grand as long as partner has both the K and Q of hearts. In that case, would you just go to exclusion immediately, without going through 2N?

(This was my thinking. Not being mikeh, I'm playing strong opps in almost any game I care about.)

[mikeh]

akwoo, on 2024-October-05, 13:53, said:

Let's suppose you're playing very strong opps. As you figured out, you are going to bid the grand as long as partner has both the K and Q of hearts. In that case, would you just go to exclusion immediately, without going through 2N?

(This was my thinking. Not being mikeh, I'm playing strong opps in almost any game I care about.)

For one thing,I don’t play exclusion until trump has been set.

For another, more universal factor, playing reasonable methods, there’s a slight chance that I’ll get some useful information via 2N before embarking on my search for grand or small.