[gprentice]

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On this hand I was south and after my 2C bid, my partner bid 3C and I won't say what I did after that but we got a zero percent board. I subsequently discovered that despite playing non serious bridge for 20 years, I suddenly didn't know what 3C was here. Well, I know what 1C - 3C is but, in the above sequence, rightly or wrongly, my brain told me I couldn't pass as I don't know my partner's strength.

So I am attempting to improve my knowledge. We play 2 over 1 and the 2C bid by south shows 11 to 17 HCP. With 18/19 points, south would jump to 3C on their second bid. I have also been advised by an expert that south bid of 2S is better than 2C, so for the purpose of this question, assume that the south 2C bid denies 3 card spade suit and denies a 6 card heart suit.

Is the following table correct for the meaning of north's bids after south 2C. I just made up the 3D 3H bids.


pass : 6 - 8 (9) points, 3+ clubs, less than 2 hearts - 5143 5053 4153 4144 etc.

2D : 4th suit forcing to game

2H : 2 card heart support, 6-9 points, could have 4+ clubs

2S : 6 card suit with 6 - 9 points or 5152 shape with 6-9 points

2NT : 10 - 12 points, either balanced (might have 4 card club suit) or 5242, 5143, 5053 shape unsuited for anything else

3C : good 9, 10-11, poor 12 HCP, 4+ clubs

3D : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, no diamond stop, 1 or less heart

3H : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, 2+ hearts, no diamond stop

3S : 6 card suit, 10 - 12 points

3NT : 13+ HCP, balanced with diamond stop, 2+ hearts

[blackshoe]

North's hand looks more like 7 points than 9 to me. Also, 9 losers, where an invitational raise is usually 8. I think your table is okay.

[mw64ahw]

You have a minimum opener and are not in a game force so Pass 3♣
As North, similar to 'blackshoe', I pass the 2♣ bid with the 'quacky' hand and balanced shape. I play it as natural although for others it may artificial. so you revert to 2♥ in that case

Personally, as West I would be competing with 2♦ over 1♥ and expect to play in 3♦ at this vulnerability, which gives you a plus over the part-score.

[DavidKok]

Your explanations of responders rebids are mostly right. Pass through 3♣ are mostly accurate, while I use the jump bids differently. In particular, if responder had 6(+)♠, they failed to make a jump shift on the first round. If that jump shift is weak (4-7) or intermediate (8-11), responder cannot hold that hand type now. As a result, for me the auction 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♠ is invitational (barring Gazzilli and the likes for a moment), since 1♥-2♠ would be weak. I've also played this the other way around, but regardless of choice you don't need a weak (6-9) and an invitational (10-12) range now on the second round.
Being able to invite at the 2♠ level on a misfit auction is valuable. Often 3♠ is too high already, or you may as well gamble on 4♠ with a close hand.

[gprentice]

 DavidKok, on 2024-September-15, 02:13, said:

Your explanations of responders rebids are mostly right. Pass through 3♣ are mostly accurate, while I use the jump bids differently. In particular, if responder had 6(+)♠, they failed to make a jump shift on the first round. If that jump shift is weak (4-7) or intermediate (8-11), responder cannot hold that hand type now. As a result, for me the auction 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♠ is invitational (barring Gazzilli and the likes for a moment), since 1♥-2♠ would be weak. I've also played this the other way around, but regardless of choice you don't need a weak (6-9) and an invitational (10-12) range now on the second round.
Being able to invite at the 2♠ level on a misfit auction is valuable. Often 3♠ is too high already, or you may as well gamble on 4♠ with a close hand.

We play 1♥-2♠ as 3 card heart support (not spades) and invitational. Similarly 1♠-3♥ is invitational with 3 card spades.

1M - 3C is 10-12 HCP and four card support.

1m - 2M we play as a six card major with zero to five points. We haven't learnt Gazilli yet but we intend to.

[DavidKok]

I am not a fan of those methods at all, but in the context of playing them I think your rebid scheme makes a lot of sense.

[apollo1201]

Apart the use of the jumps over 2C for which you assign non natural meanings while others might not, the cheaper responses are quite ok.

Since the economical rebid of 2C by opener is quite wide ranging, and contains hands up to 17 points, you need as responder to keep the bidding alive with decent most decent 8s or above.

Although it has nothing to do with the subsequent 0 MP-board, the 3C rebid with N hand could be seen as « too » encouraging, and some might request, especially at MP, a 5th trump or a bit more (HQ looks good, but S QJ look like dubious values).

Correcting back partner to H, in the 5-2 with honor doubleton means 1 trick less to do, should lead to a playable hand, scores 110 as well, and conveys less risk of partner going overboard.

But passing 2C with that is, IMO, definitely not good. They deserve finding partner with a 17-18 count, or W find a cheap balance at 2D and winning the board at 3D (making or going down, same result).

In all cases, the minimum S should pull the green cards out of the bidding box without giving a 2nd thought over a non forcing rebid by responder.

As with more strength, the 4SF 2D would have been used to look for a 5-3 fit, to find a D stopper, to express a forcing C raise, etc.

[awm]

Your meanings for 3♦ and 3♥ are pretty non-standard here. I think the popular treatment is to use 3♦ as natural and invitational (at least 5/5 in spades and diamonds and around 10-11 points). The 3♥ bid is also normally played as natural (3♥ and around 10-11 points). The game force with 6+♠ just starts with 2♦ (fourth suit GF).

Of course, your initial jump shifts can change some of this; many people play a direct 1♥-2♠ as one of constructive or invitational or game force with spades, any of which takes some pressure off the other spade rebids.

[gprentice]

 awm, on 2024-September-15, 03:18, said:

Your meanings for 3♦ and 3♥ are pretty non-standard here. I think the popular treatment is to use 3♦ as natural and invitational (at least 5/5 in spades and diamonds and around 10-11 points). The 3♥ bid is also normally played as natural (3♥ and around 10-11 points). The game force with 6+♠ just starts with 2♦ (fourth suit GF).

Of course, your initial jump shifts can change some of this; many people play a direct 1♥-2♠ as one of constructive or invitational or game force with spades, any of which takes some pressure off the other spade rebids.

ok, I neglected to say that 1M opening shows a 5 card suit, since we play 2 over 1, so 1♥ - 2♠ shows invitational with 3 card heart support. Hence it seemed that the 3♥ bid after opener's rebid of 2♣ had no obvious natural meaning so I invented something. I wasn't sure if responder could show a 6 card major after fourth suit GF - but I guess just rebidding it does that. I used to play Acol until a year ago and with Acol, the majority of people at my club would have no agreement on what a jump rebid in a major by responder showed (apart from a 6 card suit) - so I was happy that my scheme allowed responder to show both invitational and GF. Most people play Acol at my club (New Zealand) but most of the better players play 2 over 1.
[Edit - Although since I said that responders 2 clubs denies a 6 card heart suit (is that correct?) the 3 heart bid wouldn't need to show 2 card hearts and six spades].

[DavidKok]

With 6 hearts and 4 clubs I would rebid 2♣.
It is pretty common when dealt that shape to rebid 2♥ with a minimum and 2♣ with extras, intending to bid again to show the extra heart. Personally I think even with a minimum it is good to bid the clubs.

[nullve]

 DavidKok, on 2024-September-15, 06:23, said:

With 6 hearts and 4 clubs I would rebid 2♣.
It is pretty common when dealt that shape to rebid 2♥ with a minimum and 2♣ with extras, intending to bid again to show the extra heart. Personally I think even with a minimum it is good to bid the clubs.

Then what are your methods over 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2N?

[DavidKok]

Everything natural, opener has to decide between pass and 3♥ with a minimum.

[nullve]

 DavidKok, on 2024-September-15, 07:37, said:

Everything natural, opener has to decide between pass and 3♥ with a minimum.

3♥ over 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2N is NF? If so, how do you force to game with the same shape?

[apollo1201]

 DavidKok, on 2024-September-15, 07:37, said:

Everything natural, opener has to decide between pass and 3♥ with a minimum.

And 3D with à forcing 55 or 64, I guess?

Then 3H asks, and 3S 55 / 3NT 64? So that responder can place the contract?

Artificial but no other way to show a good hand that wants to be in game now we know there are about 11 more or less balanced opposite.

[DavidKok]

1♥-1♠; 2♣-2NT; 3♦ is 4SGF for me, and inquires about a doubleton in hearts, a fifth spade, or the quality of the diamond stop. Since responder has denied four clubs I think there are no responding issues - only 4=1=5=3 might have a problem, and surely that hand type can afford to claim that the diamond stop is good enough. I don't have a way to show a GF 55 on this start.

The 3♥ rebid for me is NF and asks responder to evaluate their hand for hearts. If you rebid 2♥ last round you might instead bid 1♥-1♠; 2♥-2NT; ? and now be stuck deciding whether to pass or introduce the clubs at the 3-level, opener's problem deciding between 2NT and 3♥ in my approach is somewhat similar. It would make a lot of sense to play this as GF with six hearts instead.

This start to the auction is awkward. In fact, most 1X-1Y; 2Z-2NT auctions aren't terrific, in my experience. By rebidding the minor suit with a 6-4 we save bidding space and find a possible club partial, which in my experience matters more than the relative upsides and downsides should responder bid 2NT. It also gains quite a bit on the 1M-1NT starts, 1♠-1NT in particular, as it allows the weaker hand to introduce its long suit more cheaply.

In general I like the principle of defaulting towards the cheapest bid that is compatible with your hand. This leaves maximum flexibility for partner. It doesn't always work out that way, but I like it when my bidding system leaves cheap bids frequent and higher bids, especially jump bids, as more specific hand types.

[Zelandakh]

gprentice, on 2024-September-14, 21:24, said:

On this hand I was south and after my 2C bid, my partner bid 3C and I won't say what I did after that but we got a zero percent board. I subsequently discovered that despite playing non serious bridge for 20 years, I suddenly didn't know what 3C was here. Well, I know what 1C - 3C is but, in the above sequence, rightly or wrongly, my brain told me I couldn't pass as I don't know my partner's strength.

South's 3♣ 3rd bid typically shows an invitational (~16-17) hand with 5+ clubs. Given that South has nothing like this, any discussion about your subsequent bidding seems moot.

gprentice, on 2024-September-14, 21:24, said:

So I am attempting to improve my knowledge. We play 2 over 1 and the 2C bid by south shows 11 to 17 HCP. With 18/19 points, south would jump to 3C on their second bid. I have also been advised by an expert that south bid of 2S is better than 2C, so for the purpose of this question, assume that the south 2C bid denies 3 card spade suit and denies a 6 card heart suit.

Opener's rebid of a higher-ranking suit is called a reverse and in most systems this does indeed promise extras. Most of the world plays this as around 16+ but it is quite popular in the US for minimum reversing strength to be higher than this. There is a guide to reverses written by arguably the best BBF poster pinned in one of the forums which would not be a bad starting place. I will also mention that it is very much an American thing to rebid 2♥ with 6 hearts and 4 clubs. The rest of the world makes the much more natural 2♣ rebid, which does rather simplify life.

gprentice, on 2024-September-14, 21:24, said:

Is the following table correct for the meaning of north's bids after south 2C. I just made up the 3D 3H bids.

> pass : 6 - 8 (9) points, 3+ clubs, less than 2 hearts - 5143 5053 4153 4144 etc.

Typically you only pass here with 6-7 although you might well downgrade a misfitting 8, so more or less correct.

> 2D : 4th suit forcing to game
While this is indeed how I play it, in much of the bridge world this "cheap" 4SF is played as invitational or better. There are pros and cons to each method.

> 2H : 2 card heart support, 6-9 points, could have 4+ clubs
Assuming you mean 2+ card heart support, yes.

> 2S : 6 card suit with 6 - 9 points or 5152 shape with 6-9 points
The old rule for this call was "a suit playable opposite a singleton" and I think this still has some merit. I cannot remember the last time I bid 2♠ here with just 5 and usually just correct back to hearts with a weak-ish 5152. Rebidding the spades is probably better if playing the popular US style of rebidding a 6 card major before a 4 card minor but as I have never played that (nor wanted to) I would not be able to comment on that.

> 2NT : 10 - 12 points, either balanced (might have 4 card club suit) or 5242, 5143, 5053 shape unsuited for anything else
I think it is important to mention here the strong connection between this call and 2♦. If 4SF is INV+ then this 2NT call is much more strongly defined and will contain a decent diamond stopper. But if 4SF is game forcing then 2NT does not promise a stop and in this case it is common to have a way for Opener to check back on the diamond situation before committing to 3NT when an alternative game contract is available. Finally, this 2NT generally only contains 4 clubs in systems where 2♣ is a noise rather than a real suit, most importantly after a forcing 1NT response. If wanting to invite with 4 clubs, it is usual to offer the better part-score along the way, which will typically be the 8+ card fit.

> 3C : good 9, 10-11, poor 12 HCP, 4+ clubs
Sure, more or less. The hands with a good 8 to 9 and 4+ clubs are awkward in standard natural systems but experience has shown that giving up a little on some invitational hands is worth it for more accurate game and slam bidding. This is also why 4SF GF has become so popular.

> 3D : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, no diamond stop, 1 or less heart
Here you are losing me a little. The common meanings for this are 5+ diamonds GF; 4+ clubs, 0-1 diamonds, GF; and 5+ diamonds INV. I don't think I have ever seen this idea in this specific auction, although I do use a similar idea in some others.

> 3H : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, 2+ hearts, no diamond stop
Here I think you are treading on very thin ice. This call is typically needed to cater for invitational hands with 3 hearts and a good spade suit. If you do not have this available then Responder has to commit to hearts immediately on many hands where this may well not be optimal, not to mention the loss of accuracy even on hands where we do belong in hearts but cannot show the spades.

> 3S : 6 card suit, 10 - 12 points
Sure.

> 3NT : 13+ HCP, balanced with diamond stop, 2+ hearts
I would say explicitly 13-15 here. With 16+ you generally start with 4SF before deciding whether to make a slam try.

PS: To the powers that be, when did BBF start limiting the number of quote blocks? Yet another cost-cutting measure?

[mike777]

gprentice, on 2024-September-14, 21:24, said:

---

On this hand I was south and after my 2C bid, my partner bid 3C and I won't say what I did after that but we got a zero percent board. I subsequently discovered that despite playing non serious bridge for 20 years, I suddenly didn't know what 3C was here. Well, I know what 1C - 3C is but, in the above sequence, rightly or wrongly, my brain told me I couldn't pass as I don't know my partner's strength.

So I am attempting to improve my knowledge. We play 2 over 1 and the 2C bid by south shows 11 to 17 HCP. With 18/19 points, south would jump to 3C on their second bid. I have also been advised by an expert that south bid of 2S is better than 2C, so for the purpose of this question, assume that the south 2C bid denies 3 card spade suit and denies a 6 card heart suit.

Is the following table correct for the meaning of north's bids after south 2C. I just made up the 3D 3H bids.


pass : 6 - 8 (9) points, 3+ clubs, less than 2 hearts - 5143 5053 4153 4144 etc.

2D : 4th suit forcing to game

2H : 2 card heart support, 6-9 points, could have 4+ clubs

2S : 6 card suit with 6 - 9 points or 5152 shape with 6-9 points

2NT : 10 - 12 points, either balanced (might have 4 card club suit) or 5242, 5143, 5053 shape unsuited for anything else

3C : good 9, 10-11, poor 12 HCP, 4+ clubs

3D : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, no diamond stop, 1 or less heart

3H : 6 card spade suit, 13+ HCP, 2+ hearts, no diamond stop

3S : 6 card suit, 10 - 12 points

3NT : 13+ HCP, balanced with diamond stop, 2+ hearts

Thank you for your interesting post. As someone coming back to bridge after many years, you have a very informative post and thread.
I found everyone's posts very helpful.
My 2 thoughts on reading your initial post.
1> West forgot to bid over 1H.
2> North had a clear 2H rebid.

Hope to see more posts from you in the future, good luck ....win...

[Zelandakh]

mike777, on 2024-October-30, 16:28, said:

1> West forgot to bid over 1H.

Most players do not overcall with a weak NT and length in the opps' suit. What would you suggest here - surely not 2♦?!!

[mike777]

At this vul
Favorable
Pick something please

[mycroft]

Funny, I thought it was the 2♥ over a natural, real-fit, "looking for 3NT if you have extras" 3♣ that was weird.

2♥ is fine opposite the crappy 12-count with a stiff K, clearly better than 3♣ both for scoring and making. Opposite K AJT83 KJ6 A742, though? Surely that isn't a (game-forcing) 3♣ call? Okay maybe that, too, is picking cards (with aces and kings instead of queens and jacks), but I'm sure there are other 16s with suitable diamond cards that would enjoy taking the same 9 tricks in 2♥.

And okay, "you have to do something". At matchpoints, it's probably right. When it's wrong, though, it's 800+ wrong into game, even white. Or 500 into partscore. If you have the kind of partner that can't stand those numbers, then pass is the "obviously right"(*) decision, even if it's wrong 65+% of the time.

(*)This phrase here meaning "won't get blamed for the bad result, having made it".