[Shugart23]

Scenario A. Opponents have taken the bid at 4H and your partner had thrown in a 2D overcall along the way. You are on lead and you have decided to lead a Diamond. Scenario B. Opponents have taken the bid at 3NT and your partner had thrown in a 2D overcall along the way. You are on lead and you have decided to lead a Diamond.

Is the Diamond you choose to lead the same under both scenarios?

[smerriman]

If I haven't supported diamonds at all, I'll likely be making the same lead as I would if partner hadn't bid the suit. So that will differ at NT vs suit if I have xxx, or Axx, etc.

[mikeh]

There’s no meaningful answer. I’d need to at least know what my diamonds were. It’s possible that my answer would be ‘mostly right’ if I knew that, but to be confident that I’m leading the correct diamond I’d really like to know the auction and my actual hand. Heck, on some hands and some auctions, I might decide not to lead a diamond at all.

The danger of giving an actual answer is that the reader may try to draw some kind of universal rule. We all like rules when we are learning, but the simpler the rule, the more often it doesn’t or shouldn’t apply on any given hand.

[Shugart23]

mikeh, on 2024-September-02, 22:04, said:

There’s no meaningful answer. I’d need to at least know what my diamonds were. It’s possible that my answer would be ‘mostly right’ if I knew that, but to be confident that I’m leading the correct diamond I’d really like to know the auction and my actual hand. Heck, on some hands and some auctions, I might decide not to lead a diamond at all.

The danger of giving an actual answer is that the reader may try to draw some kind of universal rule. We all like rules when we are learning, but the simpler the rule, the more often it doesn’t or shouldn’t apply on any given hand.

I think you are dodging the question. I have provided the assumptions. I'm not say the Diamond lead is necessarily the right lead, but it IS what you have decided to lead is the assumption I am forcing you to make.

If it helps 1H-2D by partner -4H vs 1NT-2D by partner -3NT. It's your lead and you choose to lead a Diamond. Is there any Diamond holding that would cause you tom to lead a different diamond under the two scenarios?

[shugart24]

smerriman, on 2024-September-02, 17:41, said:

If I haven't supported diamonds at all, I'll likely be making the same lead as I would if partner hadn't bid the suit. So that will differ at NT vs suit if I have xxx, or Axx, etc.

TY. Can you (or anyone) make up a specific hand holding (and auction if you want) where you would choose a different diamond lead depending upon whether you are defending 3MT or 4H ?

I agree that if you supported or did not support the suit, that can make a difference in your lead, so under both scenarios, don't make that a variable. If you supported (or didn't support) in Scenario A, then the same assumption is to be made in Scenario B

[hrothgar]

Shugart23, on 2024-September-03, 04:24, said:

I think you are dodging the question. I have provided the assumptions. I'm not say the Diamond lead is necessarily the right lead, but it IS what you have decided to lead is the assumption I am forcing you to make.

If it helps 1H-2D by partner -4H vs 1NT-2D by partner -3NT. It's your lead and you choose to lead a Diamond. Is there any Diamond holding that would cause you tom to lead a different diamond under the two scenarios?

If I have a stiff Diamond, then I will absolutely make the same lead.

If I do not have a stuff Diamond, I might not make the same lead.

[shugart24]

hrothgar, on 2024-September-03, 07:06, said:

If I have a stiff Diamond, then I will absolutely make the same lead.

If I do not have a stuff Diamond, I might not make the same lead.

You are changing the assumption of the question. You are REQUIRED to lead a Diamond. This is a parameter of the question and not up for negotiation. I am not trying Ito get at whether a Diamond lead is correct or not. You WILL lead a diamond. Parter HAS thrown in an overcall of 2D. If you have a singleton diamond, then yes, you will lead that card whether the contract is 4H or 3NT, GIVEN that you lead a Diamond which is a requirement of the question being asked.


Is there a situation where you would lead one Diamond against a suit contract and a different Diamond against a NT contract where partner has overcalled 2D is what I am trying to get at

I can't think of any

The reason I ask is I have a partnership agreement as to what my opening leads mean against suit contracts. I have a different '2nd' agreement as to what my opening lead means against NT contracts I have '3rd' partnership agreement at to what my opening leads mean when I am leading his suit which is different from '1' and '2' and varies a little bit if I supported or didnt support his suit in the bidding. My '3rd' agreement does NOT vary whether I am defending a NT or a suit contract. Should it, is my question.

[mycroft]

I think the question being asked is "what are your agreements when leading partner's suit in a trump contract?" and "what are your agreements when leading partner's suit in a NT contract"? (and potentially, "if they're different, why?")

I assume there's an answer when declarer asks this after your partner *has* in fact led your suit and dummy has come down. If it's "if he has a stiff, he's leading it. If he doesn't have a stiff, he may not lead it" or "depending on the hand and the auction, he might not lead my suit, or he might lead a different card in my suit" I assume you're very used to the director being at your table.

Mine are simple and, I think, pretty close to "standard" in the ACBL. "High from one or two (may reverse married doubleton honours to differentiate from HHx), low/4th from three or more, but if I have supported the suit, high from Jxx or worse. No different in NT."

Now, if the question were "what would you be thinking about when deciding whether to lead partner's suit", that I agree is a very different question - and, as whole books have been written on that topic, unlikely to be a simple one.

[shugart24]

mycroft, on 2024-September-03, 11:33, said:

I think the question being asked is "what are your agreements when leading partner's suit in a trump contract?" and "what are your agreements when leading partner's suit in a NT contract"? (and potentially, "if they're different, why?")

I assume there's an answer when declarer asks this after your partner *has* in fact led your suit and dummy has come down. If it's "if he has a stiff, he's leading it. If he doesn't have a stiff, he may not lead it" or "depending on the hand and the auction, he might not lead my suit, or he might lead a different card in my suit" I assume you're very used to the director being at your table.

Mine are simple and, I think, pretty close to "standard" in the ACBL. "High from one or two (may reverse married doubleton honours to differentiate from HHx), low/4th from three or more, but if I have supported the suit, high from Jxx or worse. No different in NT."

Now, if the question were "what would you be thinking about when deciding whether to lead partner's suit", that I agree is a very different question - and, as whole books have been written on that topic, unlikely to be a simple one.

Yes , you got to the crux of my question. If and when I lead my partners suit, the card I choose is not affected by whether I am defending a NT contract or a suit contract. If I lead an 8 as an example, its either a singleton, top of a doubleton, 3rd down from Hxx(x) or if i supported his suit, top of nothing ( Partner will have to figure it out). If Opponents ask what the lead of an 8 in partner's suit mean, we give them the possibilities. The thought cropped into my head, should there be any differnce if defending suit vs NT. Just was curious if anyone else had thoughts

[smerriman]

shugart24, on 2024-September-03, 04:30, said:

TY. Can you (or anyone) make up a specific hand holding (and auction if you want) where you would choose a different diamond lead depending upon whether you are defending 3MT or 4H ?

I already gave two examples in my first post. Regardless of whether it's partner's suit or not, my default lead from Axx is the A in a suit contract and low in a NT contract, and my default lead from xxx is low in a suit contract, and top of nothing in a NT contract.

[shugart24]

smerriman, on 2024-September-03, 13:06, said:

I already gave two examples in my first post. Regardless of whether it's partner's suit or not, my default lead from Axx is the A in a suit contract and low in a NT contract, and my default lead from xxx is low in a suit contract, and top of nothing in a NT contract.

ty..My agreement with partner id different than yours. If I have Axx(x) in my partners suit, I lead the Ace if it's my partners suit regardless whether it's a NT contract or a suit contract, given I lead that suit. (If he didn't bid that suit, I would lead low against NT and the Ace against a suit contract if i decided that was the suit to lead from)