[jillybean]

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Playing fairly standard methods, is this anything other than a Pass for anyone?

[mikeh]

I imagine there will be someone bidding, but it wouldn’t be me nor anyone with whom I’d want to play. This isn’t even close

[Tramticket]

"How low do you go?"

Add an ace and I will find a bid.

[Hanoi5]

If someone took away the Pass card from my bidding box I would use the red X. That might net me a 4-3 spade fit. Or a 5-2 diamond fit. Or the coveted 5-4 club fit. I guess I better ask for a green card from an opponent...

[DavidKok]

This is a clear pass to me. Even in the partnership where we played tranfer responses in competition, so I could bid 1♠ showing 3(-)♠, not 6(+)♣ or 5 good clubs, not 3(+)♦ and may or may not have a stopper, this hand was too weak (our requirement was around 8 HCP or more).

[johnu]

Pass, or if forced to make another bid, 1♣. There are law sticklers around who have problems with 1♣, but this is the most descriptive bid you can make.

[jillybean]

johnu, on 2024-September-04, 19:19, said:

Pass, or if forced to make another bid, 1♣. There are law sticklers around who have problems with 1♣, but this is the most descriptive bid you can make.

Yes, an insufficient 1♣ corrected to pass , forcing partner to pass may be the best way to show this hand.
It is impossible to have a logical auction if players bid with these hands.

And then there is this hand

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With these cards I am happy to will bid 1nt

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2024-September-04, 21:42, said:

Yes, an insufficient 1♣ corrected to pass , forcing partner to pass may be the best way to show this hand.
It is impossible to have a logical auction if players bid with these hands.

And then there is this hand

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With these cards I am happy to will bid 1nt

You shouldn’t. At least not with a player who thinks, as is standard in NA, that you show 8-10. There are hands on which I’d upgrade a seven count, but never a six count with no fit.

Good bridge isn’t about being aggressive or conservative. It’s about having the hand you tell your partner you have. It’s about being a partner whose bids your partner can trust.

Pass. If partner gets to reopen with a double, now 1N shows this type of hand. If LHO bids then your side is probably better of on defence if partner can’t bid over LHO’s action.

And if it turns out that stretching to bid 1N would have got a good result…so what? That’s why this game is so fascinating and so frustrating. Bad bridge works sometimes. Sometimes it’s just luck, sometimes it’s because the opps screw up. But bad bridge is losing bridge in the long run.

[mw64ahw]

Playing devil's advocate; anyone know what the stats are if you do bid 1N as many would without the interference?

At a basic level 12+6 goes down 1 versus making/+1 if the ops. get there first? It may be a plus at this vulnerability and if you are doubled then you have an escape.

[paulg]

On a similar theme, one of my club teammates asked me about the following hand he'd held last weekend in a representative team event (they were the intermediate pair surrounded by adv+ pairs):

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He felt that he had to take some action holding eight points: ruling out double, without four hearts, and all the suits, he paniced and bid 1NT. This did not work out well.

My advice was:

• there is no need to bid just "because you have 6+ points", especially when you have no descriptive bid
• your partner is still there and there is no guarantee that you even have the balance of points
• you need to hold at least four hearts when you double with a minimum hand
• you need a stopper for 1NT
• you should have a suit to bid one

As mikeh has already said, aggressive competing bidding does not mean that you always have to bid with unsuitable hands. This hand is also a clear pass to me.

Interestingly this was a trap hand with no makeable game despite holding a combined 27 HCP. The result was normal, but lessons were identified

[jillybean]

Thanks.

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Playing 12-14nt I see this is a pass.
But, if your partner is playing 15-17nt, he is not going to reopen a flat 12-14

Does this change your answer?

I know the "rule" 1C 1NT shows 8-10
I did not know this is also widely used after 1x (1M) 1nt

From some local teaching material.
1C - 1N
2N - ?

What did your 1N bid show? 6-9, a bad 10? What should you bid with this hand?
JT5 KJ8 KJ74 T987? Are you top of your range? 3NT

I think someone forgot to ask, what does partners 2nt show?

[mycroft]

I do not subscribe to the "free bid shows extras" philosophy from the 1960s. But I have to have a reason to open my mouth.

6 HCP, no fit, no stopper, and an anaemic suit (the lowest suit, for that matter)? Nothing to show here.
6 HCP, no fit, 66% of the HCP dedicated to "stopper" rather than "tricks", and completely positional to boot? Nothing to show here.

Even when my partner's "expected hand" is 15-17 balanced, do I want to bid anything? Well, maybe with the latter one, because partner is expected to have some ways to develop tricks (and not the hand that will get led through for hearts led through back twice). But that's only because "everybody"'s bid 1NT to start with, and not all of them will get an overcall, and partner could be trapped. But, still, ick; and if partner isn't trapped, *we* can get to 2♣ after their reopening double. (yes, the opponents will raise to 2♥, but we're still in better shape to guess whether to compete then after 1NT-(2♥)).

[apollo1201]

Bidding 1NT with these hands is only a good result (and not necessarily good bridge!) when (I) you are allowed to play there undoubled, and (II) if it makes (or is minus 1, if it is down 2 you are likely Xed).

On many cases partner wil push you to a doomed 3NT. Had you passed you would play a making partial.

As MikeH regularly says we are not the only one to make decisions.

The only case where I could X despite holding 3 spades is sth like Kxx x Jxxx Axxxx, no strong fit for partner but some good tolerance, short H (which makes a reopening X less likely), not (too) minimal. At least in 43 partner can take ruffs in the short hand.

[akwoo]

Playing a 12-14nt, I would absolutely bid the second hand (the one with a stopper), except I might think about it when both vulnerable (that's the worst vulnerability for competing for part scores). Partner very frequently has the balanced 15 count and can't come back in when in balancing seat. And, if partner has an unbalanced hand, they now know we have a good shot at 2 or 3 of the appropriate minor.

[jillybean]

I have it backwards?

[kgr]

 mikeh, on 2024-September-04, 22:52, said:

You shouldn’t. At least not with a player who thinks, as is standard in NA, that you show 8-10.
...
Good bridge isn’t about being aggressive or conservative. It’s about having the hand you tell your partner you have. It’s about being a partner whose bids your partner can trust.

I agree.
And I have the agreement with my partner that we make our first bid as soon as possible. 1NT would promise 6-9 HCP for us.
We also play transfer responses on level 1 , so with the first hand we bid 1S (6+ and no other good bid, probably no 4cS). I think this is more descriptive than pass.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-September-05, 07:35, said:

Thanks.

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Playing 12-14nt I see this is a pass.
But, if your partner is playing 15-17nt, he is not going to reopen a flat 12-14

<snip>

In days passed long ago, when I played Acol, i.e. 12-14NT, I was allowed to bid 1NT in the original
seq. without a stopper. You are protected by the fact, that partner is either unbal. and will bid his
2nd suit, or will have a strong NT (and a likely stopper).
It worked.

The reg. discussion was, do you have to alter 1NT, if it can be made without a stopper.

back to the original post: If 1Nt promises a stopper, you cannt make the bid, and if X showes 4 spades,
you cant either, this leaves pass, ..., and this even if you agreed to play NFB.
Pass in the original seq. just says, you dont have a suitable bid, the strength could be approaching inv.
strength, besides trapp pass hands, it does not imply, that the hand is weak.

There is a style, that plays X in this position as denying 4 spades, why? The reason is the given hand.
If the original hand is strong enough to send a life signal is a different story / discussion.

You need to decide, if showing live is more important than the ability to distinguish between 4 and 5 spades.
This is a trade of, take your pick.

[jillybean]

I play X denies 4 spades with ONE partner and I love the sequence.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-September-12, 05:55, said:

I play X denies 4 spades with ONE partner and I love the sequence.

Do you disclose it with an alert?

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-September-12, 15:24, said:

Do you disclose it with an alert?

The answer is of course, YES, and I whack the alert card on the table.
Players assume this is a regular negative double, even when I explain it as "denying FOUR spades"