[mikeh]

 Zelandakh, on 2024-August-31, 14:47, said:

Well I hate to disagree with you Mike but...here's one:-

2♠ = Muiderberg
... - 2NT = relay
3♠ = ♦ max
... - 4♣ = nat SI
4♦ = 5th ♦
... - 5♠ = XRKCB
5NT = 1 kc
... - 6♥ = SSA
7♣ = ♥Qx(x)
... - 7NT = 1♠, 3♥, 3♦, 4♣ with 3-2 diamonds or 4-3 clubs to provide the last 2.

It is obviously a lot simpler if East passes or opens 1♠ so giving an auction for those case seems redundant. I am not saying I would 100% bid it this way - it requires some solid partnership agreements for one thing - but West not at least trying just seems like bad bridge.

What is XRKCB? If it’s exclusion, maybe you can explain two points:

1. Why use exclusion? I don’t know about you but if I were west and used regular ace asking, or set a suit and used keycard I think I’m probably going to be able to work out which ace he has…but maybe that’s just me, lol.

2. Having deliberately made it impossible to know who has the spade ace you make the remarkable and majestic bid of 7N. Was that because he mysteriously showed an impossible keycard? Note that LHO can double and cash his ace and if it’s RHO, he can double for a spade lead, so I don’t like your chances.

Also, given everything you posted….what do you think are the odds that opener has the heart queen, given that he has 10 cards in the pointed suits and less than opening values? And, if he lacked that card….just where were you planning to play, given that your options seem to be 6N with no entry to dummy (ok, he might have the club 10, but that’s a thin reed) or 7C with no way to deal with your heart losers on normal defence (after you get a negative response to your heart enquiry, a trump lead seems normal)

Finally, I’m not claiming I know how everyone plays muiderberg but your agreements seem somewhat magical…I’m referring to the use of 4D to show the fifth deuce in an awful suit in which responder has shown NO interest, and we show it, presumably as some sort of cooperative move, in response to a slam try in our void. Wow.

So I remain of the view that nobody has presented a plausible auction as of yet.

[Zelandakh]

 mikeh, on 2024-August-31, 16:19, said:

What is XRKCB? If it’s exclusion, maybe you can explain two points:

1. Why use exclusion? I don’t know about you but if I were west and used regular ace asking, or set a suit and used keycard I think I’m probably going to be able to work out which ace he has…but maybe that’s just me, lol.

2. Having deliberately made it impossible to know who has the spade ace you make the remarkable and majestic bid of 7N. Was that because he mysteriously showed an impossible keycard? Note that LHO can double and cash his ace and if it’s RHO, he can double for a spade lead, so I don’t like your chances.

Also, given everything you posted….what do you think are the odds that opener has the heart queen, given that he has 10 cards in the pointed suits and less than opening values? And, if he lacked that card….just where were you planning to play, given that your options seem to be 6N with no entry to dummy (ok, he might have the club 10, but that’s a thin reed) or 7C with no way to deal with your heart losers on normal defence (after you get a negative response to your heart enquiry, a trump lead seems normal)

Finally, I’m not claiming I know how everyone plays muiderberg but your agreements seem somewhat magical…I’m referring to the use of 4D to show the fifth deuce in an awful suit in which responder has shown NO interest, and we show it, presumably as some sort of cooperative move, in response to a slam try in our void. Wow.

So I remain of the view that nobody has presented a plausible auction as of yet.

I would have thought you could see from my description of 7NT (1 spade trick) that I meant it to be normal RKCB and messed up the editing somehow. I did have a forum issue during the comment so it's quite likely. I'll re-post in full if you want. The difficult part is the use of SSAs, which is not common amongst club pairs but (afaik) completely standard at your level. Opener shows the 5th diamond because, what else? It's not like they can show support for clubs. In my world this is just natural bidding but clearly you are seeing something beyond that. I have toyed with using relays in these auctions too but it's not really needed and an open invitation to forgets, so natural it is. I assume from your tone that you think Opener should treat the diamonds as a 4 card suit and bid 4♠? I humbly disagree.

[mikeh]

Thanks for the clarification

I do use a bid of a new suit, higher than the king ask but lower than trump, to ask for third round control. The queen is perfect but so too is xx if we know we have adequate trump. I’d never heard it called anything.

But I remain puzzled. What bid is keycard over 4D and what suit is trump? Are you sure?

We can see that ‘what’s trump’ doesn’t matter here, provided it’s a minor, but your methods can’t depend on responder holding AKQ in both minors

If you can plausibly address those issues, and if there’s room for the heart enquiry….would/should opener show third round control with, say, 5=1=5=2? In which case (absent stiff heart queen) responder better not bid 7N.

[mw64ahw]

5N pick a slam with 11 tricks in hand is the right approach for this OP, but taking the longer route is straightforward using Kickbo

2♠ - 2N
3♠ - 4♣ SI ♦ (East must have 5 as I don't bid 2♠ with xxxxm)
4♠ odd KC & K♠ - 4N K♥ (grand potential)
5♥ Q♥ - 7N again counting tricks

Notes:
4♦ places the onus on West to progress
4♥ would be even keycards so 4N becomes the proxy for ♥

[nullve]

My preferred scheme over 2M(Muiderberg)-2N(INV+ relay) has long been

3♣ = MIN, 4+ C
3♦ = MIN, 4+ D
3♥ = MAX, 4+ C
...3♠ = 5+ OM
......3N = 2- OM
......4♣+ = 3 OM
3♠ = MAX, 4+D2-OM
3N = MAX, 4+D3OM,

which makes it much easier to explore a fit in the other major (OM).

So if the East hand were a Muiderberg 2♠ opener for me (say, in a system with rule of 20-ish one-of-a-suit openings), the auction would start

2♠-2N
3N*

* MAX, 4+D3H (so either 5341 or 5350)

.

What do you guys think the undiscussed meanings of Responder's rebids would be in this case? To my mind, something like

4♣ = natural or (just) possibly an advanced cuebid with a major as the intended trump suit (I consider advanced cuebids a very murky area in bidding theory)
4♦ = slam try in diamonds
4♥/5♠/5♣/5♦/slam = to play
4N = quantitative
5♥/♠ = natural slam invite
5N = pick a slam

Using this, the auction might continue

...-4♣
4♦*,

* extra diamond length, so 5350 shape

. It's true that Opener would not be happy to play, say, 6♦ opposite ♦KQx or ♦AQx, but he wouldn't want to give the impression that he has singleton support for clubs by repressing the fifth diamond, either. (He needs to have 13 cards, after all.)

Note that the auction so far is similar to Zelandakh's

2♠-2N
3♠-4♣
4♦

start, except that Opener is known(?) to be 5350, and Responder's minimum club holding must be better for 4♣ to make sense as a natural bid.

In order to have any hope of finding out about the ♥Q, it seems like Responder first needs to set a suit (diamonds? hearts?) as trumps while creating a force. But how to do that convincingly? I'm sure 4♥ ands 4♠ by Responder would obviously be a cuebid agreeing diamonds (and advanced cuebids in a different sense) to some, but for others it might just be suit preference and to still others a slam try (forcing or not?) and the reason why Responder cuebid clubs (in advance) on the previous round. Also, 4N, 5♣ and 5♦ all look like natural and non-forcing bids to me, and 5N is presumably still pick-a-slam. So how about 5♥ and 5♠? For Zelandakh, 5♠ is some kind of RKCB agreeing diamonds after his (somewhat? very?) analogous 2♠-2N; 3♠-4♣; 4♦ start. But why does it even set diamonds as trumps? I guess partly because he doesn't play 4♣ as potentially an advanced cuebid with spade support, which is probably just as well.

I realise that despite a very promising start (Opener having shown a MAX with 5350 shape at 4♦), I still can't see how with only this level of agreement Responder can do better than ending the auction with a jump to 7♦, wasting three levels of bidding space.

One thing that could help a lot, not just here but surprisingly often also in otherwise natural GF auctions, is to have a system or systems of four-level flag-like bids (Lissabon, Muiderberg, Zelandakh's,...). Apparently, both mikeh and mw64ahw already play some flag-like bids over 2♠-2N; 3♠ (4♣ sets diamonds as trumps for mw64ahw, 4♥ is Kickback agreeing diamonds for mikeh).

I do use such systems (heavily inspired by Zelandakh's) as part of my relay structures, but have so far not been using if after what most closely resembles Muiderberg 2M-2N auctions in my system. If I were to use the relevant one (shape-oriented conditional key card asks) here, the auction might go

2♠(1)-2N(2)
3N(3)-4♣(4)
4♦(5)-4♥(6)
4N(7)-5♣(8)
5♥(9)-5♠(10)
5N(11)-6♣(12)
6♥(13)-7N
P

(1) Muiderberg
(2) INV+ relay
(3) MAX, either 5341 or 5350
(4) slam try without primary diamond support
(5) 5350 (with 5341, Opener would have rebid 4♥, over which 4♠ would be to play and 4N/5♣ parity key card asks in hearts/spades, respectively)
(6) parity key card ask in diamonds (4♠/4N would have been parity key card asks in hearts/spades, respectively)
(7) odd # of key cards, no trump Q
(8) ♠K ask
(9) ♠K, no ♥K
(10) ♠Q ask
(11) no ♠Q
(12) ♥Q ask
(13) ♥Q, no ♠J

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2024-August-31, 22:02, said:

I do use a bid of a new suit, higher than the king ask but lower than trump, to ask for third round control. The queen is perfect but so too is xx if we know we have adequate trump. I’d never heard it called anything.

SSA is a term taken directly from the RKCB book. I use a slightly modified step-based response structure from the one described there. Step 1 shows xx and step 2 shows Qx(x). Higher steps show second round control starting with step 3 as a singleton, which is relevant to the later auction. The lower of a return to the trump suit or 6NT is negative denying 3rd round control.

mikeh, on 2024-August-31, 22:02, said:

But I remain puzzled. What bid is keycard over 4D and what suit is trump? Are you sure?

Over 4♦ my current rules say that 4♥ is RKCB and 4NT is Last Train with self-supporting clubs. I think a better agreement would be that 4♥ is optional KCB or even just a general slam try in diamonds but I don't like having a special rule for a rare sequence like this. I generally constructed my system to avoid landing at the 4 level without a fit but this is a special case and I have to admit to not having put much effort into optimising these sequences.

mikeh, on 2024-August-31, 22:02, said:

If you can plausibly address those issues, and if there’s room for the heart enquiry….would/should opener show third round control with, say, 5=1=5=2? In which case (absent stiff heart queen) responder better not bid 7N.

2♠ - 2NT; 3♠ - 4♣; 4♦ - 4♥; 4♠ - 5♥; 6♣ allows Opener to show ♠A and a singleton ♥ at a very comfortable level. It does not change very much if 4♥ is OKCB instead of RKCB. You are of course right that there is no option to show a singleton queen here but I can live with it. Not too many others have the methods for that over a preemptive opening either.

Edit: Don't respond to this post yet please Mike. I realised right after I turned off the computer for bed last night that I did something stupid here but I don't have time to correct it until this evening after work.

[Zelandakh]

So I wrote the last post late and fell into the classic trap of thinking about how the change in heart length would affect the original auction rather than starting afresh. But of course that was not the only change. It goes back to the original criticism of 4♦, to which my response was something like "Well what else? It's not like Opener can raise clubs." Well on the way to bed, I finally visualised the whole hand (5152) and realised that is precisely what Opener should do over 4♣ rather than rebidding the diamonds. Opener has (at least) 2 ways of raising clubs here - 4♥ is clearly the cooperative raise and 5♣ the bad raise. And when I think about it a little more, I cannot come up with any alternative meaning for 4NT outside of Last Train, which would be a third (middle) club raise. Whatever 4NT is, this hand with ♠AK and a singleton heart is clearly a 4♥ call. Over that Responder just gets back on the RKCB train: 2♠ - 2NT; 3♠ - 4♣; 4♥ - 4NT; 5♣ (or 5♦ if playing 0,1,1+) - 5NT (♥ SSA as 5♥ is K ask); 6♠ (sgl, 6♦ is xx, 6♥ is Qx(x)) - 7♣. So I maintain that a sensible auction is possible. Not necessarily probably...but certainly possible.