[shugart24]

Partner opens 1NT and you are 4333 with a 4 card Major and enough points to be at game between the two of you...say, 24-26.....do you do Stayman ? if so, and he hits your 4 card suit, do you bid 3M or 4M ?

I will add we are rigorous in that our NT shape is 5332,4333, or 4432 and 5332 hands with Majors are opened 1NT if HCP is there

[mycroft]

To me, it strongly depends on the system I'm playing.

4-4 fits play a trick better, unless they're both flat or there are significant extras.

If they're both flat, the chance they both take 9 is higher. At IMPs, that should be the "only" constructive reason to worry about this.

At MPs, I will frequently not look for a 4-4 fit if I'm 4333 and we have clear game values. With only enough for game, I will look - partner doesn't have to be 4333 herself.

So, where does this "system" bit come in?

Well, with my regular partner, we don't play Stayman, and this is where it bites us. The Puppet Stayman equivalent is long, leaky, and GF (but gets us to a number of 3NTs with 4-4 fits and only 9 tricks). The invitational sequence is very bad with 4333 for reasons that won't make sense to anybody who doesn't play it. So - we blast a lot and take our win when we don't give info away and everyone's in 3NT, and hope to break even when there is a 4-4 fit but a blind opening lead.

With other partners here, we play 4-suit transfers, so the only way to invite in NT is to Stayman. Since I'm doing it anyway, there's no reason to not go looking - and invitational hands that catch a fit can raise to 3. Opener can still offer 3NT if they think it is in play.

But where the system will give me all my options at about equal cost? I stick to Woolsey's Matchpoints advice and want extras to 3NT into potential 4M.

Now none of my partners *routinely* opens 1NT with a 5cM. That does swing the balance a bit (but if you have 3♣ Puppet Stayman, you can 1NT-3♣; 3♦ (no 5cM)-3NT on the regular. And can choose with a 4333 to treat it as a 3333.)

[pescetom]

With my regular partner and 5cM in 1NT, I play a true 2♣ Puppet Stayman which does not require any strength if you can handle any of the three replies (otherwise invitational), is stealthy and will pick up 4-4, 4-5 and 3-5 here.

At MP I would always bid the 4M. Yes it might go down 1 where 3NT makes opposite a similar flat hand, but most of the field will be in the same boat and we might bring it home where others fail.

[shugart24]

pescetom, on 2024-August-24, 08:59, said:

Placeholder

We only play match point, so that is a consideration. Our NT range is 13-15

Based on a little research, I now think my 1NT partner has an 80 percent chance of having a doubleton. So I think the Stayman bid is appropriate to see if there is the 4-4 fit ( or even 5-4). If the fit is there, I think 3M is the appropriate bid (in our system) , leaving to opener to bid 4M game if at a max, or maybe 3NT if 4333, or pass at a minimum.

We do not do puppet. Our 3C response shows 1444 or 4441 shape, game forcing values. ( is it possible to use 2C as puppet or is there a downside to this idea?_

Anyone strongly agree ? Mildly agree? Mildly disagree? Strongly disagree ?

[mikeh]

Kit Woolsey wrote a book about mp bridge many years ago. I thought, then and now, that it was a good book. Bidding has changed a lot since then but I think his main principles remain sound.

Several relate to notrump.

When considering 1N or 1M, he suggested (iirc, it’s been a while since I looked at the book) that you consider how many flaws your hand has. A 5 card major is a flaw…xx in a side suit is a flaw. Two flaws…open the major. One flaw, open notrump. I think most experienced players open 1N more often than was normal back then,but the ideas remain valid.

As for responding….his advice about 3N rather than stayman, when holding a 4 card major, was to bid 3N only when you are sure that your side has extra values. Again, I don’t recall exactly but I’m pretty sure he suggested a combined 28 hcp or so…thus, playing 15-17, responder should have 13 or so to ignore the major.

[Shugart23]

Can 2c be puppet Stayman?

[mycroft]

Yes, "as long as you can handle any of the responses, otherwise invitational" (pescetom).

You lose Garbage Stayman unless you're comfortable playing 2♦ when partner has no 5cM.

If you have a useful meaning for 1NT-3♣, keep it. But I've said for decades "I'll play anything you want at the 3 level, as long as I know. If we don't agree on something, it will come up; if we do, it won't." So - an actually useful bid that (if you play it the "3♦ doesn't promise, just denies" way) doesn't give up much and you can "automatically" use it (so you don't give up that much about your hand either) to me trumps pretty much anything else I would play here.

(of course we don't play it in Keri, because we don't play Stayman, and that decision breeds through everything else. But in a standard structure...)

[bluenikki]

mycroft, on 2024-August-24, 11:20, said:

You lose Garbage Stayman unless you're comfortable playing 2♦ when partner has no 5cM.

Bidding 2♣ with the intention of passing any response is not Garbage Stayman. It's just Stayman.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2024-August-24, 13:14, said:

Bidding 2♣ with the intention of passing any response is not Garbage Stayman. It's just Stayman.

Not true; that's precisely the definition of Garbage Stayman; standard Stayman was always defined as invitational or better. Of course, if the opposition are quiet, nobody is the wiser, but if they compete, opener is in a different position if you don't play it.

[mw64ahw]

Shugart23, on 2024-August-24, 11:09, said:

Can 2c be puppet Stayman?

If you are considering playing 2♣ as Puppet Stayman it is worth considering non-promissory alternatives which don't require at least one 4-card Major.

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2024-August-24, 14:33, said:

If you are considering playing 2♣ as Puppet Stayman it is worth considering non-promissory alternatives which don't require at least one 4-card Major.

There are lots of ways of interpreting "Puppet Stayman" or even my own (reluctant because imprecise) distinction "True Puppet Stayman".
From a precise point of view, the only true Puppet Stayman is a Puppet to 2♦ (whatever the hand) and then responder bids the other major.
But it's a short step from Puppet to Marionette and as I understand it was soon taken, breaking the Puppet to show a 5cM.
So I call a "True Puppet Stayman" any lowest level Stayman that will bid the major to show 5 cards and bid diamonds with anything else.
This is non-promissory if you can handle any of the three replies (surprisingly frequent) and does not require a 4-card Major.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2024-August-24, 11:20, said:

Yes, "as long as you can handle any of the responses, otherwise invitational" (pescetom).

You lose Garbage Stayman unless you're comfortable playing 2♦ when partner has no 5cM.

You don't lose Garbage Stayman, quite the contrary. It's a different but (in my experience) superior Garbage Stayman. It's surprising how many hands are comfortable playing either 2♦ (by far the most likely response) or 2M in the 5-3 (even 5-2). Remember that much of the rest of the field has no way to find either contract after 1NT.

What you do lose is Crawling Stayman, but that turns out to make very little difference despite my initial fears.

[johnu]

mycroft, on 2024-August-24, 11:20, said:

You lose Garbage Stayman unless you're comfortable playing 2♦ when partner has no 5cM.

The "requirements" for using garbage Puppet Stayman is to have 5+ diamonds, 2+ spades and 2+ hearts. Assuming 1NT opener doesn't have a singleton, then you are assured at least a 7 card fit, 5-2 or better after passing the response to Puppet Stayman. You can gamble with the "requirements" but you may not like the results.

[johnu]

Shugart23, on 2024-August-24, 11:09, said:

Can 2c be puppet Stayman?

The first Bridge World article on Puppet Stayman around a half century ago used 2♣ as the one and only Stayman bid. It was later adopted for use over 2NT openers, and more recently as a secondary Stayman in addition to regular Stayman.

[johnu]

pescetom, on 2024-August-24, 15:27, said:

From a precise point of view, the only true Puppet Stayman is a Puppet to 2♦ (whatever the hand) and then responder bids the other major.

From a historical view, the original Bridge World articles on Puppet Stayman used 2♦ to deny a 5 card major, and bidding the 5 card major suit as the response with that major. So maybe it should have been called Marionette Stayman, but it is what it is.

A mandatory 2♦ response won't work well, since responder may just be trying to find a 4-4 major fit or a 5-3 fit. I suppose one could devise a system to find a 4-4 or 5-3/5-4 fit, but at what cost?

[mw64ahw]

johnu, on 2024-August-24, 16:55, said:

I suppose one could devise a system to find a 4-4 or 5-3/5-4 fit, but at what cost?

With a practised partner I find the only cost with the approach I use is the occasional time 1NT gets passed when opening 1M would be better.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2024-August-24, 13:22, said:

Not true; that's precisely the definition of Garbage Stayman; standard Stayman was always defined as invitational or better.

From Stayman's 1965 book, page 30, "Responder's Rebid":

"1. He may _pass_ opener's rebid if a suit fit has been found and he knows there is no game in the hand." Emphasis in the original.

On the next page, he gives three Yarborough examples.

This was a live possibility for him, because on page 170 he wrote that he personally used the 2NT response to 2♣ to show 3=3=2=5 with a running club suit and a maximum. "The principal gain in bidding two notrump on this type of hand is to avoid a two-diamond contract, when partner was planning to pass the conventional two-diamond response."

[bluenikki]

johnu, on 2024-August-24, 16:55, said:

From a historical view, the original Bridge World articles on Puppet Stayman used 2♦ to deny a 5 card major, and bidding the 5 card major suit as the response with that major. So maybe it should have been called Marionette Stayman, but it is what it is.

A mandatory 2♦ response won't work well, since responder may just be trying to find a 4-4 major fit or a 5-3 fit. I suppose one could devise a system to find a 4-4 or 5-3/5-4 fit, but at what cost?

2♦ also denied a 6-card minor in the original.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2024-August-25, 10:49, said:

From Stayman's 1965 book, page 30, "Responder's Rebid":

"1. He may _pass_ opener's rebid if a suit fit has been found and he knows there is no game in the hand." Emphasis in the original.

On the next page, he gives three Yarborough examples.

This was a live possibility for him, because on page 170 he wrote that he personally used the 2NT response to 2♣ to show 3=3=2=5 with a running club suit and a maximum. "The principal gain in bidding two notrump on this type of hand is to avoid a two-diamond contract, when partner was planning to pass the conventional two-diamond response."

Well, if you want to quibble about the *original* version of Stayman, his original publication in 1945 required a response of 2nt with a maximum and both majors, meaning you could not bid Stayman with weak hands. This was indeed dropped later to allow for Garbage Stayman. It may not have been called that back then, but is now.

[DavidKok]

I agree with most of what has been said, and would recommend checking out Richard Pavlicek's site if you are curious about large studies on whether 3NT or 4M plays better with these shapes. I have run a lot of double dummy simulations on this myself as well, as have many others. It is one of the few questions that is really straightforward to encode in a computer program.

With 4333 I would not look for a 4-4 or 5-4 fit. Double dummy this is a slight favourite, and single dummy the advantage of concealing declarer's hand is much greater still.

The dozen slightly different flavours of Stayman have an impact, but not enough to change my above answer. I would caution against taking radically different approaches in slightly different systems - this requires a degree of accuracy and familiarity with each system that I think is very rarely seen.

johnu, on 2024-August-24, 16:35, said:

The "requirements" for using garbage Puppet Stayman is to have 5+ diamonds, 2+ spades and 2+ hearts. Assuming 1NT opener doesn't have a singleton, then you are assured at least a 7 card fit, 5-2 or better after passing the response to Puppet Stayman. You can gamble with the "requirements" but you may not like the results.

Conversely, refusing to 'gamble' may also not produce desirable results. I think that with at least 2-2 in the majors and 5(+) diamonds in an otherwise very weak hand it is right to bid, but I think there are other hands where this might well also be percentage. I have not checked this, but for example with a 1=3=5=4 or 4=4=4=1 0-count I think sitting for 1NT rates to fare poorly.