[Swammerdam]

This hand came up yesterday in the Casual Game. I'd want to examine the auctions at other tables; but checked out, so "Other Tables" no longer works.
(Is there a way to see those older results?)

East Deals, Non vs Vul

East: AJTxx QTxxx JT8 -
South: KQ8xx 8xx xx AJT
West: 9 K AQxxx KQ97xx
North: xx AJ9x K9x 8xxx

P P 1C P
1S P 2C P
2H P 3D P
3H P 4C P
4D P P P
Down 1. Lost 1.5 imps
(I call this an "almost-misfit" because we did have the 5-3 diamond fit. Partner dropped the opponent's Axx of clubs to hold the contract to down 1.)

West has three choices: 1C;2C or 1D;2C or 1C;2D

His hand is a King better than an opening bid (change the KC to the Deuce and would still open) but NOT an Ace better. (Change AD to Deuce and one wouldn't open, at least in 1st- or 2nd-chair.)
A reverse shows a hand that's at least an Ace better than a minimum opener, so 1C;2D may be a poor plan.
That leaves the choices of UNDER-emphasizing the Diamonds or OVER-emphasizing the diamonds. What's your plan?

BTW, I like pure SAYC where 1D on a 4-bagger is the normal response to 1C even if one has a 4-card major. Take advantage of the bidding room!

Were there other doubtful bids in the auction? I wasn't sure about 3D -- is that treated as "4th Suit Forcing May Be Artificial"?

[Cyberyeti]

2♦ multi- P-P-P for us ?

but this sort of hand is a nightmare, the key is just to stop bidding

[bluenikki]

 Swammerdam, on 2024-August-19, 04:33, said:

This hand came up yesterday in the Casual Game. I'd want to examine the auctions at other tables; but checked out, so "Other Tables" no longer works.
(Is there a way to see those older results?)

East Deals, Non vs Vul

East: AJTxx QTxxx JT8 -
South: KQ8xx 8xx xx AJT
West: 9 K AQxxx KQ97xx
North: xx AJ9x K9x 8xxx

P P 1C P
1S P 2C P
2H P 3D P
3H P 4C P
4D P P P
Down 1. Lost 1.5 imps
(I call this an "almost-misfit" because we did have the 5-3 diamond fit. Partner dropped the opponent's Axx of clubs to hold the contract to down 1.)

West has three choices: 1C;2C or 1D;2C or 1C;2D

His hand is a King better than an opening bid (change the KC to the Deuce and would still open) but NOT an Ace better. (Change AD to Deuce and one wouldn't open, at least in 1st- or 2nd-chair.)
A reverse shows a hand that's at least an Ace better than a minimum opener, so 1C;2D may be a poor plan.
That leaves the choices of UNDER-emphasizing the Diamonds or OVER-emphasizing the diamonds. What's your plan?

BTW, I like pure SAYC where 1D on a 4-bagger is the normal response to 1C even if one has a 4-card major. Take advantage of the bidding room!

Were there other doubtful bids in the auction? I wasn't sure about 3D -- is that treated as "4th Suit Forcing May Be Artificial"?

On the auction as given, the 3♥ bid is a clear error.

To be "4th etc" it must be the 4th bid in the auction, not just the 4th suit. (Pass is not a bid, just a call.) Other 4th-suit bids may be forcing, but they say something about the suit. Stopper, control or whatever.

But on this auction, opener would/should not be bidding a short suit. Having limited their hand with 2♣, opener would/should not get excited by 2♥, unless holding 4. But that would/should be shown by a raise, not the 4th-suit bid.

[mw64ahw]

I treat this as 5-5 in the minors and open an unbalanced ♦
1♦ - 1♥ either or both Majors limited
2♣ 10 cards in the minors at least 5♦4♣ - 2♦

[jillybean]

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2♦ (weak, both Majors) by East would be perfect but it is forbidden.

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I can't open this 1C intending to show the diamonds as it takes the bidding to a higher level and my hand is not strong enough.
My partner expects that I could have this shape after I open 1D then rebid clubs.

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3♦ is a new suit, (under discussion) but not '4th suit' as noted above. For my partnership, 3♦ would be asking for a stopper for nt but this would be unusual as 1C 2C shows a minimum hand. We have a misfit and want to get out as quickly as possible. Tough hand

[apollo1201]

The hand is not strong enough (14 incl a stiff K, lack of intermediaries diamonds) so you have to bid it as a 55 and see if partner forces what to bid.

Here it would go 1D // 1S // 2C and now partner should bid 2D that you happily pass. Yes, it could be a 52 while C could be 63 but it should be a playable contract, and if opps balance, you can rebid 3C.

The given auction is not a thing of beauty. Once you decided not to show D by opening 1C, on the encouraging bid of 2H (forcing, 54 at least in SH, 9-10 points minimum), you can t suddenly make the most space consuming call of 3D (I guess it shows some kind of 1435 interested in 4H). It is either 3C or 2NT but your pard exaggerated, the C void is a liability in their hand that did not have so many assets anyway.

[bluenikki]

 apollo1201, on 2024-August-19, 10:17, said:

The hand is not strong enough (14 incl a stiff K, lack of intermediaries diamonds) so you have to bid it as a 55 and see if partner forces what to bid.

Here it would go 1D // 1S // 2C and now partner should bid 2D that you happily pass. Yes, it could be a 52 while C could be 63 but it should be a playable contract, and if opps balance, you can rebid 3C.

The given auction is not a thing of beauty. Once you decided not to show D by opening 1C, on the encouraging bid of 2H (forcing, 54 at least in SH, 9-10 points minimum), you can t suddenly make the most space consuming call of 3D (I guess it shows some kind of 1435 interested in 4H). It is either 3C or 2NT but your pard exaggerated, the C void is a liability in their hand that did not have so many assets anyway.

Under what theory is a natural bid by a passed hand forcing? Since it is _not_ forcing, a raise with 1=4=2=6 is plenty good as an invitation.

The 2♣ rebid certainly is 6+ and a minimum opening bid.

What's wrong with opening 1♦ is that you won't be able to limit your hand.

[bluenikki]

 jillybean, on 2024-August-19, 07:22, said:

3♦ is a new suit, forcing but not '4th suit' as noted above. For my partnership, 3♦ would be asking for a stopper for nt but this would be unusual as 1C 2C shows a minimum hand. We have a misfit and want to get out as quickly as possible. Tough hand

Since 2♣ promises a minimum hand, how is a non-natural 3♦ possible? And if natural, how can it be forcing?

[jillybean]

 bluenikki, on 2024-August-19, 12:26, said:

Since 2♣ promises a minimum hand, how is a non-natural 3♦ possible? And if natural, how can it be forcing?

Hold on, 3♦ is taking the auction to another level. If partner wants to "correct" to clubs, we are at the 4 level.
Ater a 1♣ opening and 2♣ rebid - what is 3♦?

[bluenikki]

 jillybean, on 2024-August-19, 15:12, said:

Hold on, 3♦ is taking the auction to another level. If partner wants to "correct" to clubs, we are at the 4 level.
Ater a 1♣ opening and 2♣ rebid - what is 3♦?

If you were 7-5 you would surely want to be able to bid 3♦ naturally.

[jillybean]

 bluenikki, on 2024-August-19, 15:38, said:

If you were 7-5 you would surely want to be able to bid 3♦ naturally.

I don't think that I want to force to perhaps the 4 level with a non fitting minimum opposite a passed hand.

[mikeh]

It’s tempting to open 1S as east, but one has to draw the line somewhere and 8 hcp is on the wrong side of that line

West can’t reverse with this weak a hand. Make it x x AKQxx KQxxxx and it’s tempting but there’s that line again….still on the wrong side.

So P P 1D P 1S P 2C P to east

East is in a quandary. Is 2H artificial? I usually play 4SF by a passed hand…a one round force to avoid having to jump opposite a potentially weakish third seat opening bid….that agreement is awkward here, since a misfit looms….but partner could be 0=4=5=4 or 1=4=4=4 (assuming one doesn’t rebid 1N with that pattern).

If 2H is natural, then I choose it and get out in 3D when partner bids 3C

If 2H is 4SF, then I bid a quiet 2D over 2C.

Note that west is not merely allowed to bid 2H over 2D, with 0454 or 1444 and a 16+ count or so, but he’s actually supposed to do that on many such hands (more the 0454 than the 1444) and can even do it with very good 1354 hands, with the values for 2N over 1S but the wrong shape. So 2D probably ends the auction but doesn’t rule out finding hearts on some hands.here, we play 2D.


Edit: not a good hand for Meckwell responses where 2H in response to 1D shows about 5-8 hcp, 5 spades and 4+ hearts

[Swammerdam]

 jillybean, on 2024-August-19, 07:22, said:

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Is there some App that lets you create this diagram? Looking at the code, I see ordinary text strings. I suppose I could type in such strings; is there an easier way?

[Cyberyeti]

 Swammerdam, on 2024-August-20, 07:03, said:

Is there some App that lets you create this diagram? Looking at the code, I see ordinary text strings. I suppose I could type in such strings; is there an easier way?

the spade symbol between 2 red lines on the toolbar