[ASHhoki]

Hello,
1) what natural systems avoid 3NT?
2) how do they bid it?

North dealer all non vol

South doesn't like raises of major on 3 cards if balanced.

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[DavidKok]

In modern natural bridge this is tough to avoid. Systems exist that will get to 4♠ (or even 5♣) here, but most of them are not natural and also this would be a cherry-picked example. Most of the time when you have such a wide open suit the opponents are in the auction, and you need to rely on your competitive bidding instead. But even if that doesn't happen this scenario is considered an acceptable system loss, made up for by the times showing hand type early gains a lot.

With North as dealer and playing standard with a 15-17 NT I would expect the auction
1♣-1♠;
1NT-3NT;
a.p.

[paulg]

As DavidKok says, some hands are just too difficult and most people do not worry too much about bidding the occasional game with xx opposite xx.

When we have two balanced hands opposite each other, all our bidding systems are geared to playing in no trump. If you seek to identify such weaknesses then you just help the defence with the lead in whatever contract you end up in: you have to balance the downside of this with the upside when it does help. Most of us feel it loses in the long run.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you play weak NT, and if you agreed to play some kind of 2-way stayman,
it may be possible, that the North shape gets determined. But only per accident.

I play something, that may give me a chance, lets see if I remember right

1NT (1) - 2D (2)
2H (3) - 2S (4)
2NT (5) - 3NT ... (6)


(1) 11-14, only bal. hand types without a 5 card major allowed
(2) GF Stayman
(3) no 4 card heart suit, 4 spades still possible
(4) relais
(5) 5 clubs
(6) at this point I give up, just bidding 3NT, you could ask for where the doubleton is, but why?

If you use a different schema, the doubleton heart may show up earlier, the schema we are
playing tries to maximize to make responder declarer, but you may have different priorities,
this would lead to a different schema.

The main downside to the schema we play is, that you cannot open semibal. hands with 1NT, the
relay structure wont be able to handle it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

1♣-1♠
1N-3N
is normal, but the auction could go
1♣-1♠
1N-3♦
3♠ showing the weak ♥ doubleton and ostensibly 3235/3244
Now South has a choice

My own auction would go
1♣-1♠ GI
1N BD -2♣ 5cm?
2♥ 5♣-2♠
3♣ denies ♦♥ guards forciing to 3N

You are now in a position to choose between the Moysian ♠ contract and ♣s

[jdiana]

I like mw64ahw's first alternative auction. The 3♦ rebid describes responder's hand and reflects the understanding that opener's 1NT rebid does not promise stoppers.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-June-03, 01:44, said:

In modern natural bridge this is tough to avoid. Systems exist that will get to 4♠ (or even 5♣) here, but most of them are not natural and also this would be a cherry-picked example. Most of the time when you have such a wide open suit the opponents are in the auction, and you need to rely on your competitive bidding instead. But even if that doesn't happen this scenario is considered an acceptable system loss, made up for by the times showing hand type early gains a lot.

With North as dealer and playing standard with a 15-17 NT I would expect the auction
1♣-1♠;
1NT-3NT;
a.p.

I agree that natural systems are in difficulty after 1X 1Y 1N, but there are valid conventional developments such as XYZ which deal with (or at least bring to light) many awkward situations including this one. I don't think it is cherry picking to expect:
1♣ - 1♠
1NT - 2♦ (GF seeking direction)
2♠ (3 card support) - 3♦ (NAT, doubt about hearts)
4♠ (signoff) - P
or:
1♣ - 1♠
1NT - 2♦ (GF seeking direction)
2♠ (3 card support) - 3♦ (NAT)
3♥ (ask stop) - 4♠ (signoff)
P