[jillybean]

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Shuffle deal and play, these were the actual spots.

[mycroft]

I rely on Kit Woolsey's "second flaw" (from his Matchpoints) a lot.

Here, 4333 and "`aces` and spaces" (and not even good spaces) in three suits are "two flaws" - don't do it.

Call me simple.

Also, call me old-fashioned, but I find that it's easier to show encouragement later when my borderline max hand grows up than to reel partner back when my borderline min hand fades.

[pescetom]

I don't consider Spades a flaw, if it really is balanced (and more balanced than this is impossible).
But it's still slightly below 2NT.
With good methods and at IMPs I would probably go 2NT all the same, otherwise follow system.

[Cyberyeti]

I voted not 2N, why ? Give partner an average 6 count, does it make game ? I'm sure this is susceptible to a sim, but I'd suggest not that often, even xx, xxx, Axxx, Axxx may well not, this isn't worth close to 19 let alone 20 in my book, but K&R disagrees and says 19.1, although not close to 20. If you play 19-20, maybe, I wouldn't playing good 19 - 21 as I do.

[blackshoe]

Bergen would say that the hand is 19 "starting points". If your system is such that you open 2NT with 19-20 I suppose this is okay. If it's 20-21, this hand doesn't make the cut.

[DavidKok]

Upgrading into 2NT is often bad. You preempt your own auction. Also what's the cost of opening 1m? Are we worried about competition?

[Douglas43]

What plus factors would make anyone upgrade this hand to 20? I play 4cM, and would open 1S. With 5cM I still fancy 1S, although I suppose a club is systemically correct.

[jdiana]

blackshoe, on 2024-May-28, 13:58, said:

Bergen would say that the hand is 19 "starting points". If your system is such that you open 2NT with 19-20 I suppose this is okay. If it's 20-21, this hand doesn't make the cut.

I assume that you're adding 1 point for the quality spade suit and subtracting 1 point for the 4-3-3-3 shape? I like using Bergen's starting points for my initial hand evaluation but I've always been a bit confused about whether to automatically subtract a point for 4-3-3-3 shape in a notrump hand. Can you point to something in Marty's writings where he clearly recommends that as part of the starting point calculation?

(Not being argumentative here - I'm really conflicted about it. The closest thing I've found is an example on p. 51 of Slam Bidding Made Easier. In general, it's described as a "downgrade". I don't think he assigns a point value, but it's hard to see how you use a "downgrade" without subtracting a point. )

Also feel free to post or cross-post here if you like - https://bridgewinner.../bergen-points/

[mikeh]

Upgrading this hand is simply trying to hog the hand….aka masterminding

If one plays 15-17 1N and 20-21 2N (pretty much NA standard) then it’s NOT a mistake to treat a 4333 19 count as….drumroll please….a 19 count!

Yes, it’s loaded with controls and I love controls. Controls play a big part in my partnership’s approach to upgrading. But they’re hardly the only criterion and we usually need two plus factors to justify treating the hand as anything than what it appears to be…a 19 count.

So AKQx A108 K109x Kx. That’s worth 20. Two decent 4 card suits, great spot cards, and 7 controls.

Advancing players often read about or witness experts seemingly upgrading all the time. Firstly, those players probably play a lot better than do the advancing players…simply put, they’ll tend to get more out of their cards than do non-experts and while this is offset to some degree by the fact that they’re often playing against expert defenders, there’s truth to the adage of ‘declarer’s advantage’.

Secondly, most high level expert bridge is at imp scoring, where overbidding is not as costly as it is at mps. Go down one in a nv 3N and lose 5 imps…make it and gain 6….assuming 2N bid and made at the other table. But go down in a 3N few pairs bid and you’re sharing a zero at mps.

Thirdly, while it’s true that a lot of upgrading occurs in the expert game, most of those upgraders aren’t doing it randomly. They don’t look at a flat 19 and call it 20 just because they like upgrading.

Finally, if you upgrade this sort of hand then you need to change your CC if it announces 20-21.

In my partnership, we play 20-21. On the WBF CC, which we use internationally, we write ‘frequent upgrades, rare downgrades’ and in ACBLand, when we announce we will usually say…’.we do upgrade’. But we upgrade hands on which simply counting the hcp understates the playing strength.

[jillybean]

This is a hand I will be reviewing with a few players today, I do not yet know how their auctions went but they did not get to the right contract.
I imagine that they opened 1C but failed to rebid 2nt.

My first reaction was a 1C opening but then the hand is so control rich, I wondered if others would upgrade this.
I will reveal more later.

[jillybean]

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It wasn't what I had imagined at all.
South was concerned that partner had not show spades and didn't want to play in 3nt.
They ended up in 5♥, not sure how the auction went.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-May-29, 13:24, said:

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It wasn't what I had imagined at all.
South was concerned that partner had not show spades and didn't want to play in 3nt.
They ended up in 5♥, not sure how the auction went.

Famous last words in bridge: "Their points have to be somewhere." In this case, it's true. Knowing partner has 18-19 HCP and looking at their own hand, it's kind of impossible for North not to have spades stopped. South's hand is (IMO) just a tiny bit shy for a 4NT invite.

[Tramticket]

1S for me.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-May-29, 14:18, said:

Famous last words in bridge: "Their points have to be somewhere." In this case, it's true. Knowing partner has 18-19 HCP and looking at their own hand, it's kind of impossible for North not to have spades stopped. South's hand is (IMO) just a tiny bit shy for a 4NT invite.

Yes, I hope south won't be shy to raise to 3NT next time.
This seems to be a common problem that less confident players have, they look at their own hand and wouldn't want to play NT.

Those who opened 2nt will easily get to the slam here. I'm not endorsing 2nt !

[jillybean]

Tramticket, on 2024-May-29, 14:28, said:

1S for me.

"My opening bid, playing standard"

[Cyberyeti]

The main feature of responder's hand is the 5 card diamond suit, is 3♦ forcing over 2N ?

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-29, 14:57, said:

The main feature of responder's hand is the 5 card diamond suit, is 3♦ forcing over 2N ?

It is for me.