[paulsim]

Hi all,

Do you think there is an standard approach in theese sequences? And what do you thint is the best approach?

A.-
1♥.....p.....1NT.....p
p .......p.......p.....2♠
p........p.......X

.- Is it "always/never/need to agreed:
Penalty?
Take out?
Optional?
No standard? Partnership dependant



B.- If the overcall were in a minor: does it change the meaning?

C.- If the overcall was before rather than after the 1NT-bidder, does it change the meaning?

D.- Do you think that responder doubles are always for penalty after bidding NT?


Thank you all,

Kind Regards,

Paul_S

[P_Marlowe]

Hi

I have no idea, if there is a standard approach, I have no idea, what is best / optimal, the
following are my interpretations, if this would happen at the table

A - T/O, showing a a max., the NT cannot have 4+ spades, he also does not have 3+ hearts
B - Optional, a max. is sufficient doubling a minor on the 2 level is not game
C - Not really
D - No

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

It appears like you're trying to bid after 4 passes

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2024-May-01, 05:44, said:

It appears like you're trying to bid after 4 passes

And also ignoring the Hand Editor (last icon on right, Spades in a brown rectangle) which is one of the better features of this forum.

[paulsim]

Yes, sorry


1H...p...1NT...2S
P....p....X....p
?

[pescetom]

I doubt there can be a standard approach as it depends on what 1NT denies (in particular in terms of hearts support).

[mikeh]

The example of 1H (P) 1N (2S) is quite different from, say, 1S (P) 1N (2H) and different again from 1C (P) 1N (2x)

If one eschews complexity, one can treat all 2-level overcalls after the 1N response in the same way. That probably isn’t optimal but it’s fairly immune from ‘forgets’.

I’ll discuss the example auction first..opener began with 1H and RHO bids 2S over responder’s 1N

Double by opener can be either penalty or takeout (I’ll ignore the implications if one plays good-bad or bad-good 2N since that adds complexity and few using this forum would play either).

It can’t be both, lol.

If it’s penalty, which will be low frequency given that at most opener will (usually) hold 4 spades, then responder should double with a decent 1N and no heart fit unless he has a long suit of his own (bid 3m). He’s doubling to get to a hopefully playable 3 level contract.

If opener’s double would have been takeout, responder’s double is a little different…opener has denied a good shapely hand so responder, with a blah 3=2=4=4 needn’t reopen…..there’s virtually no chance that opener has a penalty pass hand, where he couldn’t double directly

But with 1-2 spades, 1-2 hearts and a non-minimum, say 2=2=5=4 or 2=2=4=5, responder doubles. Not only does he hope for a playable 3 level contract but he is also catering to a penalty pass.

The partnership has to decide whether opener’s double is takeout or penalty, but responder’s double is always takeout.

This is especially so when the opps have overcalled in a suit higher than opener’s….responder can’t have a 4 card major and bid 1N so can’t hold a penalty double of a usually 6+ suit sitting behind him.

Now, it’s possible to play that opener’s double if a suit lower than his is penalty and of a suit higher than his is takeout. After say 1H (P) 1N (2S) opener will more often hold some 1543/1534 hand with modest+ extras and need to compete than he will hold a trump stack in spades.

After say 1S (P) 1N (2H), the chances of opener holding good hearts are higher than of holding good spades after opening 1H. As one example, he’ll very rarely hold 5=6 majors but 5=5 or 5=4 with good hearts are possible, if improbable.

It’s also possible for responder’s double to mean different things depending on suit ranking.

But most won’t want to risk the memory issues that arise from playing different doubles depending on the rank of overcaller’s suit and opener’s.

My advice….opener’s double is takeout. With a penalty, pass and hope responder reopens with a double. Btw, it’s extremely important to learn to pass as opener in tempo when holding a penalty double. If your double is defined as takeout and, lusting to double for penalty, one pauses and then passes, you run the risks of (a) an adverse ruling if partner stretches to reopen, successfully and (b) an unsavoury reputation as an unethical player.

Also, responder’s double is takeout. Every now and then you lose a good penalty but….many times the takeout approach gets you to a good spot or pushes the opps a level higher. Plus, if you’re loaded in their suit, it sounds as if things are breaking badly and maybe your offensive values are worth less than one might think.

Imo, takeout wins more often than does penalty, but usually less spectacularly….you get a lot of +110 or 130 against +50/100 or -110, and rarely get +500 or better. However, even at my favourite form of scoring, imps, imo the takeout approach (which doesn’t eliminate penalties) is a consistent winner.

[paulsim]

thank you very much