[Flame]

There are two version for this bid, a. shows 6 card clubs b. either 6 cards or 5 clubs + 4 major.
The benefit of the second version is its covers more hands then the first version.
The main problem as i see it with the second version which is when responder has a potential major fit and not a good and he will risk finding a misfit and going down in a too high contract, or not try and miss a game.
eample :
you hold
Jxx
AQxx
Jxxx
Kx

3 possible opener hands
1.
x
Kxxx
Kxx
AQxxx
2.
Kxxx
x
Kxx
AQxxx
3.
Kxx
x
Kxx
AQxxxxx
With hand one 4H is a good enough contract to play.
hand 2 2c is probebly our only makable contract
hand 3 3c have good enough chances.
So as i see it when we dont find a major fit , the extra club on hand 3 is usually better then the 4 club on the other major on hand 2.
For these resson i perpose a middle way approach to the 2c opening.
Either 6 clubs or 5 clubs and 4 hearts (could change this to spades if u like)
This way responder with hearts have better chances to find a major fit, and even when he doesnt find one opener atleast has 6 clubs which make 3c a resonable contract.
If we play this version we can open 1S with 4S 5 clubs which is supported by "the way forward" (on Todd's site ) system. or open 1c with it as done by new version of "unassuming club" with kokish 1h (on danial's site) which then 1c-1d-1h=19+ any, 1c-1d-1s = clubs+spades. 1c-1d-2c= 6 cards 16-18.
Sorry if this was too long, wanted to explain my ressons. What do you think ?

[pbleighton]

Sorry, but I don't like it.

You left out the reason people play 2C as having 5 - to clean up the 1D opener. If you disallow 5C4S in 2C, but allow 5C4H, your 1D opener is still nebulous, AND you don't know if 2C is 6.

Peter (who plays 2C as 6)

[Flame]

pbleighton, on Jul 10 2005, 07:05 AM, said:

Sorry, but I don't like it.

You left out the reason people play 2C as having 5 - to clean up the 1D opener. If you disallow 5C4S in 2C, but allow 5C4H, your 1D opener is still nebulous, AND you don't know if 2C is 6.

Peter (who plays 2C as 6)

First i didnt left it out, i said ppl play the 5-4 version because it contain more hands which i ment to say free other bids of including those hands.
Second I didnt advice to open 1D with 5-4 club/major, i gave 2 ways first opening one of the majors (prefer spades) with 4. second open 1c new unassuming club style, which is kind of polish club.
I must say that the suggestion to play it only with one major looks strange, but maybe it got something in it.

[david_c]

Flame, on Jul 10 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

you hold
Jxx
AQxx
Jxxx
Kx

I don't see this hand as being too much of a problem opposite a Precision 2♣. Even if you don't have a heart fit, you might still have enough strength for game (most likely 3NT). So passing 2♣ is not an option, whatever you think the chances of a major-suit fit are. And the field is going to in at least 2NT anyway.

IMO the real killer hands responding to a Precision 2♣ are those with about 8 points and a good five-card major suit. For instance, I've just dealt myself ♠8 ♥KJT98 ♦AT532 ♣74. Yuk. This situation doesn't improve much even if 2♣ promises six cards, if opener could still have four hearts.

But anyway, if you're playing a limited 4-card 1♠ opening, then it does indeed seem like a good idea to put 5♣-4♠ hands in there, so that 2♣ can have hearts but not spades.

I'm not so keen on the idea of putting them into a "strong" 1♣ - that gives you a 1♣ opening which is even nastier than AUC. However, if you're playing Polish Club, then I think there's a lot to be said for pretending that minimum 5♣-4M hands are balanced. (So you open 1♣, but don't intend to show a club suit later.) You will miss a few club fits that way, but I suspect it will still turn out better on average than opening 2♣.

[Flame]

david i tottally agree with you on the real problem hands, i didnt think enough before i gave the examples and i should have given hands with something like 5 card major.
I do like the auc and in auc you bid 1c with 5 clubs and 4 hearts/spade, i think it might be better then polish club (which i currently play) however the new version (with the kokish 1h) seems like a good improvment , after 1c 1d
opener bid 1h with all 19+
1S with with 4 spades unbalanced (usually 5 clubs)
and 2c with clubs and hearts, this mean with 6 clubs opener will have to bid 3C, he could maybe bid 1nt with bad 6 clubs but this is still a comprimize.
So if you take the club hearts out of the 1c, you have 2c rebid to show clubs and 1s to show clubs and spade.
out of the context i really think the new auc is very good.

[keylime]

I play the old school 5-4 but with a catch; it can only be on a maximum hand.

[david_c]

keylime, on Jul 11 2005, 06:03 AM, said:

I play the old school 5-4 but with a catch; it can only be on a maximum hand.

Yup, I like this too. Not only does it make it safer for responder to bid over 2♣, it also means you can improve your system of responses. (For example, you'll hardly ever want to play in 2NT after this 2♣ opening, so you can give 2♣:2♦,2M:2NT an artificial meaning.)

But it does mean you have to be disciplined and pass a lot of 12-counts. It helps if you have ways of showing this hand type later in the auction - for example you can use a double by a passed hand to show 5♣-4M.

[whereagles]

There are about 20 different ways of playing the 2♣ opening. I hate them all, so I tried to dump the 2♣ opener into 1♦

The problem is that the 1♦ opening becomes rather muddy unless you play a 12-14 1NT all the way (pass 11 balanced hands and open 1♣ on 15-17 balanced). That makes 1♦ an unbalanced hand with 5+ in a minor, which is quite ok. Not perfect, but it's the lesser evil (in my perspective).

[Free]

I like the MOSCITO 2♣ opening: shows 6+♣ and is most of the time singlesuited (only a poor 4 card M allowed). It's quite good for both constructive and preemptive bidding. Never really played a 5-4 2♣ opening, so can't really judge on that.

[Double !]

I played precision for a few years eons ago, and I always hated the 2C opening if it could have a 4-card major. System fixes left and right.

I recently was able to purchase a used copy of Wei-Anderson's "Matchpoint Precision" book and, so far, I like what I see. Say what you want about adding a 4-2-1-6 hand to the plethora of nebulous 1 diamond openings, but the system eliminates having a 4-card major if you open 2C (also no 4-card major if you open 1NT). I could see the partnership opening 1 diamond on about 10 different type of hands if the stars are properly aligned. But at least you don't have to worry about missing a 4-4 partial at matchpoints.

[Chamaco]

Double !, on Jul 12 2005, 05:49 AM, said:

Say what you want about adding a 4-2-1-6 hand to the plethora of nebulous 1 diamond openings, but the system eliminates having a 4-card major if you open 2C (also no 4-card major if you open 1NT).

There may be some truth in this, but, if this leads me to play such nebulous bids, then I'd rather bite the bullet completely and play a strong club, canapè 4cM, "MAFIA" style.
=====================================

Since the problem seems to be mostly 5431 shapes (6clubs + 4M are less of a problem, usually), I am more inclined to "distort" the hand according to honors concentration:
- with good club suit, open 2C
- with good 4cM (e.g. min requirements HHTx), mi, steal a card in the major and open 1M
- with scattered values, open 1NT if it fits the range
- with marginal opener (11-12, occasionally a bad 13), no good suit, and hcp range outside of 1NT opener, pass is an option.