[Free]

I recently got some interest in these kinds of conventions, but I have a few questions. I talked to someone who plays it, but we didn't have a lot of time. I also have some writeup, but it already contains things which are in contrast with what the player told me...

So far, this is what I'd like play:
Dbl = strong, penalty oriented (both minors when in 4th seat)
2♣ = 4+♥
2♦ = 4+♠
2M = 6+M

With 5-4M you show the shortest Major first.

- The 2m bids, are they always 2-suited? And if so, do you always need to be 5-4?
- Can you show 4-4M without confusing a 5-4? (perhaps using the Dbl like Meckwell?)
- Do you bid with 4441's and 5440's? If so, how?
- Do we prefer a 4-3 fit at 2-level over a possible 5-2 fit?
- How do you continue with strong hands over 2m bids? 2NT probably, but then what?
- How do you continue after a Dbl (strong hands, weak hands, intermediate hands, all depending on vulnerability and stuff)?

[MickyB]

Anchoring to the shorter major is known as Asptro. The best write-up I've found is here - the biggest error is that it calls it Astpro instead

[MickyB]

Ok, some more comments...

I'd prefer to play in a 4-3 at the 2 level rather than a 5-2 at the 3 level. The problem is that if we do that (eg bid 2H over 2C with 4342) then we will play in a 4-3 instead of a 5-4 when partner has spades or diamonds.

Astro always anchors to hearts with both majors, Aspro always anchors to spades. This solves some of the above problems but has the effect of losing the unanchored major when it is the shorter of the two. Aspro is slightly better than Astro, but conventional wisdom is that neither is as good as Asptro.

The 2m bids are always 5-4s. If you bid it on 4-4 and partner is (32)44 with 3 card support for the major you have anchored to, he will ask you for your five card suit. You will now land up in a 4-2!

4441s shouldn't bid, 5440s can bid if you treat them as two suiters.

After a penalty double...weak hands pull, strong hands don't. If they run immediately then I prefer forcing pass over 2m, takeout doubles over 2M. If they make a forcing pass then bidding immediately shows a weak hand that knows where it wants to play, bidding after the XX has been passed around to you shows a weak hand that doesn't know where it wants to play, bidding after they have run is constructive NF.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend double to show the minors in 4th seat. *By a passed hand*, I play that double shows either a minor or both majors, 4-4, or 5-4 (not 4-5). Now you've removed the 5-4 shape from 2C the odds tilt in favour of bidding 2H over 2C with a 4324 IMO.

This post has been edited by MickyB: 2005-July-10, 04:06

[david_c]

MickyB, on Jul 10 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

I'd prefer to play in a 4-3 at the 2 level rather than a 5-2 at the 3 level. The problem is that if we do that (eg bid 2H over 2C with 4342) then we will play in a 4-3 instead of a 5-4 when partner has spades or diamonds.

I prefer to bid 2♦ with this hand. One reason is that I don't think it's a good idea to be bidding an asptro 2♣ on any pile of rubbish with 4 hearts and 5 clubs: if I bid 2♣ and then correct to clubs I'll nearly always have six of them. [In fact I would probably pass with example hand (3) from the site Mike referred to: ♠xx ♥AQJx ♦xx ♣KJTxx, even at nil vul. If you want to be able to bid on hands like this then I would say you should try some other system - asptro is supposed to be constructive, and one effect of this is that you can't take a bid on all the hands you might like to.] The same goes for hands with spades+diamonds or spades+clubs. But 4 hearts and 5 diamonds is OK of course, intending to pass partner's 2♦ ask.

Incidentally, I like to use a "lebensohl" (1NT):2♣:2♦,2NT or (1NT):2♦:2♥,2NT to show the hands with a 4-card major and longer minor. This frees up a 3m bid to show a good 5-5 hand. (Weaker 5-5s rebid 2M.)

[1eyedjack]

MickyB, on Jul 10 2005, 05:01 AM, said:

Ok, some more comments...

With which I generally agree, subject to one qualification:

MickyB, on Jul 10 2005, 05:01 AM, said:

The problem is that if we do that (eg bid 2H over 2C with 4342) then we will play in a 4-3 instead of a 5-4 when partner has spades or diamonds.

If the opps allow us to play in a 4-3 fit at the 2 level when we have a side suit 5-4 fit, then I reckon to beat par. And I don't much care how many tricks I make in the 4-3 fit or how many more I can make in the 5-4 fit. The reason the opps allowed us to declare is that each opp had slightly too much of our trump strength to be confident that the hand is not a misfit. They probably would be less happy about allowing us to declare once we settle in our 9 card fit. But as they have a 9 card fit as well, playing in 2H reckons to pay dividends.

[Free]

david_c, on Jul 10 2005, 12:13 PM, said:

Incidentally, I like to use a "lebensohl" (1NT):2♣:2♦,2NT or (1NT):2♦:2♥,2NT to show the hands with a 4-card major and longer minor. This frees up a 3m bid to show a good 5-5 hand. (Weaker 5-5s rebid 2M.)

And after 2NT use 3♣ as P/C I suppose? Nice tool!

[FrancesHinden]

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The 2m bids, are they always 2-suited?  And if so, do you always need to be 5-4?

Yes. You are supposed to be 5-4 or better, but what you do love all at pairs is entirely up to you.

Quote

- Can you show 4-4M without confusing a 5-4? (perhaps using the Dbl like Meckwell?)

I don't see the point of playing double for the minors. It seems to be saying to the opponents "you chose to play in 1NT instead of your 4-4 major suit fit, so I'm going to give you another chance to improve your matchpoints by finding your fit"

I play double as penalties in 4th position as well, but as a passed hand I play double as a 3-suiter including spades (if you don't have spades, you are less likely to want to compete). "3 suiter" includes 4432s at the right vul. I did it on a 4333 once, but partner said that was a 4-suiter.

Quote

- Do you bid with 4441's and 5440's?  If so, how?

4441s No. 5440s yes, but you have to ignore one of the suits unless the opponents give you a chance.

Quote

Do we prefer a 4-3 fit at 2-level over a possible 5-2 fit?

Yes, in general. As overcaller, you can bid more freely with 4 hearts and 5 diamonds than with other 4CM holdings, because you pass responder's 2D relay ("to play opposite 5 diamonds").

Quote

How do you continue with strong hands over 2m bids?  2NT probably, but then what?

I find 2NT is too useful for natural purposes, so play the following response structure:

(1NT) - 2C - P -
2D = to play opposite 5 diamonds
2H = to play (usually 3+-card support unless 2-1 in the reds)
2S = to play
2NT = natural invitational, strength depends on your agreements for the overcall
3C = strong relay (see below)
3D = high card invite with 3-card support for partner's major
3H = distributional invite
3S = natural FG

Pretty much the same after (1NT) - 2D - P with the obvious things changed.

(1NT) - 2C/2D - P - 3C - P
3D = 5 cards in the anchor major, 4+ cards in the minor; now 3H asks for the minor and 3S = clubs, 3NT = diamonds
3H = both majors
3S = 4 card major, longer clubs
3NT = 4 card major, longer diamonds
4C/4D = good 5-5 or 6-5

Quote

How do you continue after a Dbl (strong hands, weak hands, intermediate hands, all depending on vulnerability and stuff)?

A question worthy of a topic of its own, but not directly related to ASPTRO

[helene_t]

- The 2m bids, are they always 2-suited?
Yes
- And if so, do you always need to be 5-4?
5-5 is even better
- Can you show 4-4M without confusing a 5-4? (perhaps using the Dbl like Meckwell?)
No. Pass or double with 4-4M.
- Do you bid with 4441's and 5440's? If so, how?
Not 4441, but you could ancor to a 4-card major with 5440. (With 5M4♣4♦ you can either bid your major suit or transfer to it, depending on suit quality).
- Do we prefer a 4-3 fit at 2-level over a possible 5-2 fit?
Yes, I prefer a known fit to an unknow fit.

[1eyedjack]

I think my earlier response could do with some improvement.

It is I think significant what range of 1NT you are defending. If it is a strong 1N and your methods are primarily destructive (probably should not be using Asptro or its variants at all in that case I guess) then be happy to settle in a 4-3 fit whatever happens outside.

But against a weak 1N where your methods may be constructive, you could well be outgunning the opponents, in which case playing in an inferior fit may well be an inferior result and you should perhaps be less fearful of the opponents finding their best fit, provided that you succeed in locating your own.

Statistically, overcaller is highly likely to have precisely 4 or 5 cards in his anchor major. As well as being considerably less likely a priori, with 6-4 shape overcaller should perhaps treat his hand as single-suited, as there are good chances he would prefer to play at the 2 level in a 6-1 fit than at the 3 level in a 4-3 fit (the likely scenario if he started by showing a 2 suiter).

As regards which is more likely between a 4 or 5 card major, I would say purely from instinct that they are likely to be fairly evenly divided. That being the case I think that advancer should be under considerable pressure to show immediate support for the major with precisely 4 card support. With only 3, bid the relay unless he really cannot stand partner bidding another 5 card suit (or passing to show 5 in the relay suit). The reason for this policy is that if the auction gets contested further by the opening side (a likely prognosis) one person from your own side needs to have a fair idea whether or not to compete to the 3 level. If both partners are showing a variable number of trumps this is rather difficult to judge by either partner. If one of you has a precise trump length and the other variable, at least the player with variable length has a slightly more reliable guess.

The upshot is that if you overcall 2C with 4xH and 5xC against a weak 1N opener, you should do so well prepared to rebid 3C over 2D, when you may have only a 7 card fit in both suits.