[jillybean]

#4. MP's

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[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the first question would be, if 2♠ showed add. strength.

After that I may bid 4♣, but given that it is MP, you need to
decide, which risk you are going to accept.
You could bid 3♣, if partner bids 3NT, you know, that the value of
your heart holding have improved, if he bids 3♦, you could give
up with more confidence.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

2♠ shape, not promising any additional strength after the gf 2♣ response.

P_Marlowe, on 2024-March-11, 00:55, said:

After that I may bid 4♣, but given that it is MP, you need to
decide, which risk you are going to accept.
You could bid 3♣, if partner bids 3NT, you know, that the value of
your heart holding have improved, if he bids 3♦, you could give
up with more confidence.

With kind regards
Marlowe

After 3♣ : 3♦ where are you stopping?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-March-11, 01:00, said:

2♠ shape, not promising any additional strength after the gf 2♣ response.


After 3♣ : 3♦ where are you stopping?

3NT

You still could try 3H, as some kind of half stopper ask, problem is, you only want to
by pass 3NT, if partner has a half stop. But partner will by pass 3NT without a halfstop.

As it is, if partner has add. strength, he may (or may not) proceed over 3NT.

[Douglas43]

I'm just punting 6♣. It's probably got play and the opening leader may guess wrong.

[pescetom]

Douglas43, on 2024-March-11, 07:26, said:

I'm just punting 6♣. It's probably got play and the opening leader may guess wrong.

On a friday night, I punt 6NT... out-Douglas the 6♣ crowd for a MP top

In a more serious tournament, 3♣ (note that as we play, 2♣ did not guarantee clubs).
If she bids 3♥ then I bid 3NT and see whether that ends things for her.
If she bids 3NT then I invite with 4NT, ready to pass 6NT or bid 6♣ over 5♦.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-March-11, 10:37, said:

On a friday night, I punt 6NT... out-Douglas the 6♣ crowd for a MP top

In a more serious tournament, 3♣ (note that as we play, 2♣ did not guarantee clubs).
If she bids 3♥ then I bid 3NT and see whether that ends things for her.
If she bids 3NT then I invite with 4NT, ready to pass 6NT or bid 6♣ over 5♦.

I play 1M:2C as a generic GF but 1D:2C as clubs GF, why hide your GF major at the 1 level?

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-March-11, 11:23, said:

I play 1M:2C as a generic GF but 1D:2C as clubs GF, why hide your GF major at the 1 level?

Like most Italians we wouldn't hide a major at 1 level over 1D, although some do with a GF hand (arguing that their conventional developments over 2♣ are more effective/stealthy).
But we would bid 2C over 1D with any other GF hand, including a raise of diamonds or just a 3=3=3=4.
All other developments over 1D are natural.
Note that 1D is 4+ cards, 2C over 1M does not deny 4 diamonds and 2D over 1M is always 5+ cards.
Looks a bit odd to those who play inverted minors, but works very well.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-March-11, 13:56, said:

Like most Italians we wouldn't hide a major at 1 level over 1D, although some do with a GF hand (arguing that their conventional developments over 2♣ are more effective/stealthy).
But we would bid 2C over 1D with any other GF hand, including a raise of diamonds or just a 3=3=3=4.
All other developments over 1D are natural.
Note that 1D is 4+ cards, 2C over 1M does not deny 4 diamonds and 2D over 1M is always 5+ cards.
Looks a bit odd to those who play inverted minors, but works very well.

Yes, I am interested in the 1x:2♣ generic game force but I'm not there yet.
I don't play short club so 1D can be 3, 2D/1M is always 5+

Back to the hand, I fear we are falling into the 3NT trap. I have 8 tricks in clubs, aren't we being a little pessimistic?
3NT will likely kill the auction.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-March-11, 14:12, said:

Back to the hand, I fear we are falling into the 3NT trap. I have 8 tricks in clubs, aren't we being a little pessimistic?
3NT will likely kill the auction.

The only way we stop in 3NT is if partner asks for a hearts stopper and then gets cold feet when I show it.
In that case I'm not particularly optimistic that 6♣ was a better bet at MP.
But I trust my partners more than I trust in Jacks.

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2024-March-11, 15:50, said:

The only way we stop in 3NT is if partner asks for a hearts stopper and then gets cold feet when I show it.
In that case I'm not particularly optimistic that 6♣ was a better bet at MP.
But I trust my partners more than I trust in Jacks.

Partner would ask for a stopper with a boring minimum hand, and you would respond 3NT with a boring minimum hand, correct? I'm not sure what a better approach is, but it's hard to read passing 3NT as showing 'cold feet' when they don't know you have 8 club tricks.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2024-March-11, 16:16, said:

Partner would ask for a stopper with a boring minimum hand, and you would respond 3NT with a boring minimum hand, correct? I'm not sure what a better approach is, but it's hard to read passing 3NT as showing 'cold feet' when they don't know you have 8 club tricks.

Correct.
But over 3NT I pretty much need them to have three top honours in the majors besides their strength in diamonds, which probably corresponds to 'warm feet' opposite 3NT with a stopper and a minimum for 1♦ 2♣ (which is a heavy rebid even by 2/1 standards).

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2024-March-11, 16:39, said:

♦

Correct.
But over 3NT I pretty much need them to have three top honours in the majors besides their strength in diamonds, which probably corresponds to 'warm feet' opposite 3NT with a stopper and a minimum for 1♦ 2♣ (which is a heavy rebid even by 2/1 standards).

Does partner expect you to have 9 winners looking at his 3 bare aces ? 12 tricks and a finesse for 13

[P_Marlowe]

How is partner supposed to ask for a heart stopper, he cant, since the auction
develops 3C, followed by 3D from partner, and now I have to bid again.

I can ask for a heart stopper, not partner.

And yes, I have 8 tricks, and a void in partners long suit, add to than on
top, we still have no idea, if partner is broke, or has add. values.

For all we know, partner may have nothing in clubs.

But I dont mind 6C, it is a guess, I think I will have company in 3NT, but
I am not so sure, that I will have company in 6C.
But you dont win with only av. boards, sometimes you need to go for it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Douglas43]

pescetom, on 2024-March-11, 10:37, said:

On a friday night, I punt 6NT... out-Douglas the 6♣ crowd for a MP top

In a more serious tournament, 3♣ (note that as we play, 2♣ did not guarantee clubs).
If she bids 3♥ then I bid 3NT and see whether that ends things for her.
If she bids 3NT then I invite with 4NT, ready to pass 6NT or bid 6♣ over 5♦.

I know 6♣ is crude, but this is going to be a very difficult hand on which to get across all the information needed for an accurate assessment. In particular I can't use Exclusion in partner's suit without risking a catastrophic misunderstanding. Even though opener's reverse into spades doesn't show extras, there is a reasonable chance that they have enough for slam to be good, or that a defender may start with a top diamond and regret it. We could be in a slam that fails on best defence, but doesn't get it. And if it's a stupid result, well, I've been there before.

And sometimes partner has a club void and no-trumps is trickier than expected...

Paul

[pescetom]

Douglas43, on 2024-March-12, 03:26, said:

I know 6♣ is crude, but this is going to be a very difficult hand on which to get across all the information needed for an accurate assessment. In particular I can't use Exclusion in partner's suit without risking a catastrophic misunderstanding. Even though opener's reverse into spades doesn't show extras, there is a reasonable chance that they have enough for slam to be good, or that a defender may start with a top diamond and regret it. We could be in a slam that fails on best defence, but doesn't get it. And if it's a stupid result, well, I've been there before.

And sometimes partner has a club void and no-trumps is trickier than expected...

No-trumps on Friday night I will already be kicking myself seeing the ♦A lead

As for exclusion, it has the same problem here as control-bidding to investigate the major suit controls: the trump suit is clubs and we just don't have the space to investigate slam effectively below game (which will be a MP disaster anyway even if it makes).

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-March-11, 17:20, said:

Does partner expect you to have 9 winners looking at his 3 bare aces ? 12 tricks and a finesse for 13

I knew you were going to say that
Also ♠AKxx ♥Qx and crappy diamonds, if you want a real minimum.
But there is no shortage of hands near minimum where 3NT is the only place to be.

[jillybean]

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3/15 pairs bid 6C, others stopped in 5C or 3nt

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-March-13, 00:48, said:

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3/15 pairs bid 6C, others stopped in 5C or 3nt

Over 3C what is stopping your partner from bidding 3NT?
He has a heart stopper.

For that matter, what did induce him to bid 2S?
He has a bal. hand.
If 2NT showes add. strength, fair enough, he should bid 2D,
but if it showes 12-14 bal, brilliant.

2S showes an unbalanced hand, at least 5-4.
The follow up with 3D made sure, that the picture he drew gets
only confiremed, it indicates even a 6-4 shape.

Opener should clarify his shape as fast as possible!

The problem of NOT reaching 6C is located on the West side.

[jillybean]

Partner will never agree to bidding 2D here! The rest is unclear at best.