[mycroft]

Not Precision, but I played one K/S partnership where we opened all 5M332s 12-14 1NT, at least all 5♥332s.

That meant that 1♥-1♠; 1NT was explicitly 15-17; with 5-4 we could bid the second suit.

Whether that improved bidding enough to cover missing the odd fit I don't have an answer, but it did make bidding of all these hands more comfortable. And with 1NT-3♣ being a routine doublecheck, the "only" loss is at the partscore level. Combating that is "1♥-2♥ is a magic invitation for the opponents in a way that 1NT-p is not (even if it's wrong)". Of course, 1♥-2♥ is a much more comfortable place to compete from when they do come in than 1NT-p (similarly 1♥-interference with 3 hearts is much more comfortable than 1NT-interference).

I've been tempted to try this in a strong NT shell, and in a Precision (2-range) shell.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 I dont care, as long as you do it always, i.e. always 1M or always 1NT.
In my regular partnership we open 1M, this is due to the fact, that my partner preferred it, years ago,
which may no longer be the case, and we kept it that way.

#2 Always execute the transfer, in the major, I rarely (if ever) transfer in a minor to 3 level.


With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2024-February-19, 11:53, said:

#2 Always execute the transfer, in the major, I rarely (if ever) transfer in a minor to 3 level.

I did simulations for both and they both pay off...
the problem of transfer in a minor is "just" that it is a relatively complex convention requiring precise memory of the agreement and accurate judgement on both sides, so frequent disasters are assured in a non-serious partnership (in which case I too prefer that minor transfers are off).

[Shugart23]

 pescetom, on 2024-February-20, 16:27, said:

I did simulations for both and they both pay off...
the problem of transfer in a minor is "just" that it is a relatively complex convention requiring precise memory of the agreement and accurate judgement on both sides, so frequent disasters are assured in a non-serious partnership (in which case I too prefer that minor transfers are off).

Thats hard to believe if you are 5332 with a minor, that transferring to 3 of the minors against a weakish (13-15) 1NT opening pays off. I generally will transfer with a 6-card minor if my hand is totally useless in NT, but never with a weak 5m332 hand. Your simulation result is interesting if that is what you simulated. I will continue to transfer to the Major always.

I'm still thinking on whether to bid 1NT or 1M when I have 5M332 hand and 13-15. Perhaps it may depend upon whether 1NT is forcing by a passed hand.

[Gilithin]

The statistics say that opening 1♥ with 5332 is a slight winner on those hands and a significant loser on other hands but that 1♠ is a significant winner on the 5332s that (at least) offsets the significant loss on other hands. Some systems, notably SEF and Forum D, always open 5M332 with 1M and have tailored the rebids to that. In particular, 12-14 hands bid 1♥ - 1♠ -- 1NT, 1M - 1NT -- P or 1M - 2X -- 2M (bucket, to be followed by NT); 15-17 hands rebid 2NT in almost all cases; and 18-19 hands rebid 3NT. You can see from this that you have reduced the granularity of your 2M rebid after a 2/1 response and collapsed your bidding space in the 18-19 auctions. Compared with these relatively structural issues, adding a response to 1NT for Puppet Stayman is a relatively simple solution, which is one reason why so many pairs prefer this route despite the statistics for the 5♠(332) hands I mentioned at the top.

[Shugart23]

I am not sure what you mean in your first sentence. Can you say it a different way?

[Gilithin]

 Shugart23, on 2024-February-24, 10:01, said:

I am not sure what you mean in your first sentence. Can you say it a different way?

Of course! If you look at just the 5M(332) hands in isolation, you will do slightly better by opening 1♥ over 1NT and considerably better in opening 1♠ over 1NT. However, the impact of including these hands within the 1M structure rather than in 1NT means that all of the other hands (5422, 5431, 5521, etc) will have a significant negative. The overall result, according to the available stats, is that opening 1♠ is neutral to positive and opening 1♥ is negative.

[Shugart23]

 Gilithin, on 2024-February-24, 14:09, said:

Of course! If you look at just the 5M(332) hands in isolation, you will do slightly better by opening 1♥ over 1NT and considerably better in opening 1♠ over 1NT. However, the impact of including these hands within the 1M structure rather than in 1NT means that all of the other hands (5422, 5431, 5521, etc) will have a significant negative. The overall result, according to the available stats, is that opening 1♠ is neutral to positive and opening 1♥ is negative.

Thanks much.

As I read this string, the picture that seems be emerging is that
1) if you have a weak 5M332 hand and partner opens a weakish NT (13-15 or 12-14), you should transfer.
2) if you have 5M332 with Hearts and can choose between opening 1NT vs 1H, you are probably better off opening 1NT, if nothing else, to prevent the 1S overcall. especially if forcing NT is off
3) if you have 5M332 with Spades and can choose between opening 1S or 1NT, the jury is out. Perhaps in 1st or 2nd seat 1S is ok, but in 3rd or 4th seat it may depend upon whether forcing NT is on or off ( If on, perhaps better to open 1NT)
4) By including 5M332 hands within the 1NT bid, you may be at greater risk losing at Matchpoint part scores than opening 1H or 1S.

I would be curious (maybe I should take a poll) if forcing NT is on or off when partner has passed and you open 1M where you are capped at 15

[awm]

 Shugart23, on 2024-February-25, 08:15, said:

Thanks much.

As I read this string, the picture that seems be emerging is that
1) if you have a weak 5M332 hand and partner opens a weakish NT (13-15 or 12-14), you should transfer.
2) if you have 5M332 with Hearts and can choose between opening 1NT vs 1H, you are probably better off opening 1NT, if nothing else, to prevent the 1S overcall. especially if forcing NT is off
3) if you have 5M332 with Spades and can choose between opening 1S or 1NT, the jury is out. Perhaps in 1st or 2nd seat 1S is ok, but in 3rd or 4th seat it may depend upon whether forcing NT is on or off ( If on, perhaps better to open 1NT)
4) By including 5M332 hands within the 1NT bid, you may be at greater risk losing at Matchpoint part scores than opening 1H or 1S.

I would be curious (maybe I should take a poll) if forcing NT is on or off when partner has passed and you open 1M where you are capped at 15

Very few players use 1NT forcing as a passed hand. Even opposite a 1st seat opening it's becoming a lot more popular to play "semi-forcing" where opener passes on balanced hands that would decline an invitation.

[ulven]

1/ Always open 1NT.
2/ Always transfer.

This will not be optimal decisions on every deal, of course. But save your energy for other situations, and you will be a stat winner.

[pescetom]

 Shugart23, on 2024-February-22, 08:11, said:

Thats hard to believe if you are 5332 with a minor, that transferring to 3 of the minors against a weakish (13-15) 1NT opening pays off. I generally will transfer with a 6-card minor if my hand is totally useless in NT, but never with a weak 5m332 hand. Your simulation result is interesting if that is what you simulated. I will continue to transfer to the Major always.

You're quite right sorry, I replied to the reference about minor transfers assuming 6 card, which is our minimum for a minor transfer and what I simulated. I too doubt a 5 card minor transfer to 3 level could pay off.