[Shugart23]

I haven't played bridge since the pandemic began and now am trying to get back into it with my son who has never played bridge. Can you remind me or tell me how you bid when bidding has gone 1C-1D -2C - ? or 1C -1D-2D -? and you hold 5-7 HCP and are 4441, short in Openers minor ? and my second question is if bidding has gone 1C-1D-2D and you hold 5-7 HCP, 5+ Clubs and are short in Diamonds, but no 5 card Major - say 4315 or 3316 as examples. Thank you

[DavidKok]

To the best of my knowledge these are problem hands for the system and I would suggest 2NT, natural invitational. Daniel Neill suggests possibly passing some 5-counts because of the misfit but otherwise agrees. As a 2M bid shows five and opener has limited their hand somewhat, 2NT is 5-7 and a misfit (we'd raise with that range and more suport).

[akwoo]

After 1C-1D-2C, I would suggest you play whatever system you play over a 2C opener, with adjustment for opener being stronger. So responder with 5-7 hcp and one or two 4 card majors would bid 2D, asking for a 4 card major in some way, in most flavors.

The auction 1C-1D-2D is very much a problem auction. For both of your hand types, I would suggest 2N. Keep in mind that opener should bid a good 4 card major at the 1 level in preference to 2D with 5 or even possibly 6 diamonds, precisely because 1C-1D-2D is so problematic.

[PrecisionL]

Many Precision Pairs deny a 4-cd Major after 1♣ - 1♦ - 2 of either minor and also is probably 16-19 hcp, so game is out of the question.

I have played this way for 10 years now.

[DavidKok]

PrecisionL, on 2024-January-13, 16:56, said:

Many Precision Pairs deny a 4-cd Major after 1♣ - 1♦ - 2 of either minor and also is probably 16-19 hcp, so game is out of the question.

I have played this way for 10 years now.

This is a style I've been playing as well but for me the range was closer to 16-21. Having to jump facing 0-7 with a so-so 20-count is unpleasant, instead relying on partner to take another bid with most 5-7 hands is fine as we're often safe at the 3-level on those deals (or we can pass partner's bid at the 2-level, relying on the fact that playing in the long suit of the weak hand is often better anyway). Alternatively I've been trying 1♥ as another strong waiting bid, but that's a different approach entirely.

[Gilithin]

Since you are teaching your son and probably using Strong Club as a natural system as much as possible, I would suggest raising the upper threshold of a 1♦ opening a few points, thus freeing up the 2♦ rebid for stronger hands. And as has already been mentioned, you can play exactly the same response structure after 1♣ - 1♦ -- 2♣ as for your 2♣ opening. These two changes combined resolve both of the issues.

[Shugart23]

Gilithin, on 2024-January-14, 08:11, said:

Since you are teaching your son and probably using Strong Club as a natural system as much as possible, I would suggest raising the upper threshold of a 1♦ opening a few points, thus freeing up the 2♦ rebid for stronger hands. And as has already been mentioned, you can play exactly the same response structure after 1♣ - 1♦ -- 2♣ as for your 2♣ opening. These two changes combined resolve both of the issues.

Thanks..I am actually using a slightly modified version of Oliver Clarkes Super-Precision system http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk/index.php which my wife and I used for about 5-6 years until we switched over to a canape system (MICS). Pandemic hit and wife didn't want to play anymore, sadly. The MICS system was a lot of dun, but I had to 'unlearn' a lot when not opening 1C


https://www.bridgewo...page_11768.html

Thank you and thank everyone else for the advice

[Shugart23]

PrecisionL, on 2024-January-13, 16:56, said:

Many Precision Pairs deny a 4-cd Major after 1♣ - 1♦ - 2 of either minor and also is probably 16-19 hcp, so game is out of the question.

I have played this way for 10 years now.

What do you bid then when you are, say 4163 and 18 HCP ...1C-1D - or am I misunderstanding your post

[PrecisionL]

Shugart23, on 2024-January-14, 11:55, said:

What do you bid then when you are, say 4163 and 18 HCP ...1C-1D - or am I misunderstanding your post

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ = 1 round force (a) 4+♥, or (b) 20+ hcp, sometimes balanced.

Responder continues with 1♠ if 0-4, otherwise shows ♥ support or non-support with 5-7 hcp.

Opener's rebid in ♦ shows 5+♦ and confirms 4+♥.

We have other auctions to show 5M + 4+ minor ....

[foobar]

Shugart23, on 2024-January-14, 09:18, said:

Thanks..I am actually using a slightly modified version of Oliver Clarkes Super-Precision system http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk/index.php which my wife and I used for about 5-6 years until we switched over to a canape system (MICS). Pandemic hit and wife didn't want to play anymore, sadly. The MICS system was a lot of dun, but I had to 'unlearn' a lot when not opening 1C


https://www.bridgewo...page_11768.html

Thank you and thank everyone else for the advice

FWIW, I would go with the SMP (Dan Neill's Standard Modern Precision) if starting from scratch. IMO, OCP is a little too complex / awkward.

[DavidKok]

The MICS book helped me learn a lot about the combination of strong club, 4cM and canapé. That being said swapping between a system like that and more standard ones, e.g. Precision, causes serious whiplash. The inferences are completely different, and it is not an easy task to go back and forth between the two.

I second the suggestion of SMP, though there are many serviceable alternatives as well. The uncontested responsive structure to the 1♣ opening is thankfully not the most critical part of any strong club system, so it is quite fine to not spend much time and effort on it.

[Shugart23]

Thanks, I will look at SMP for sure

I totally agree that switching back and forth between MICS and Precision would have been a hard thing to do. We had to unlearn how we used to look at things and this took a while.

For me, the game was getting stale. I wanted to open 4 card Majors and didn't like the fact that opponents could overcall with their Major over our 1 Diamond bid. MICS breathed new life into the game for me and made it interesting again. It is a lot of fun to open 1S with 4 little Spades when the opponents have an 8+ card fit in Spades and where I can't be doubled for penalty. It's even more fun when the opponents overcall into my long suit that I was going to show on my second bid.

At any rate, the learning curve for us was 3-6 months before we started consistently winning again and then we played our version of MICS exclusively until the Pandemic hit. The problem with both systems is you have to have a regular partner.

Having said that, I would say that if the game has lost its edge for an established precision pair or maybe even a Standard American pair ( I have never played SA), it might be worth considering learning MICS

[DavidKok]

I've built my own 4cM canapé strong club system based on Cottontail by Jan Eric Larsson and taking inspiration from MICS, Italian Blue Club and modern 2/1. Personally I think the approach to system design has a lot of merit, it gives us an advantage in competition on the most common hand types (11-13 bal and 11-15 semibal with one or both 4cM) and has a number of other things going for it (strong club, no nebulous openings, three weak two's and a weak 2NT, a strong notrump). As you say it requires a regular partner though, which is especially difficult to find as this style requires a noticeable grace period before all the inferences become second nature.

For the people curious, the system notes can be found here.

Thankfully all these design choices are independent of the followup structure to the 1♣ opening.

[Shugart23]

PrecisionL, on 2024-January-14, 13:47, said:

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ = 1 round force (a) 4+♥, or (b) 20+ hcp, sometimes balanced.

Responder continues with 1♠ if 0-4, otherwise shows ♥ support or non-support with 5-7 hcp.

Opener's rebid in ♦ shows 5+♦ and confirms 4+♥.

We have other auctions to show 5M + 4+ minor ....

so canape with a 4 card Major after 1C-1D ? so 1C-1D-1S 1NT (2nd negative?) -2C shows 4 Spades, 5+ Clubs ?

[Shugart23]

akwoo, on 2024-January-13, 14:52, said:

After 1C-1D-2C, I would suggest you play whatever system you play over a 2C opener, with adjustment for opener being stronger. So responder with 5-7 hcp and one or two 4 card majors would bid 2D, asking for a 4 card major in some way, in most flavors.

I see how that could work, but then the weak hand is the captain, instead of the strong hand

[DavidKok]

Shugart23, on 2024-January-15, 04:59, said:

so canape with a 4 card Major after 1C-1D ? so 1C-1D-1S 1NT (2nd negative?) -2C shows 4 Spades, 5+ Clubs ?

That depends a bit. The SMP set is:

1♣ (16+ unbal or 17+ bal) - 1♦ (0-7 any); ?

• 1♥: 4+ hearts, unbalanced, forcing, if game forcing then exactly 4 hearts and a longer minor suit or a hearts-spades reverse.
  
• 1♠: 4+ spades, unbalanced, forcing, if game forcing then exactly 4 spades and a longer minor suit.
  
• 1NT: 17-19 balanced.
  
• 2♣: (5)6+ clubs, unbalanced, denies a 4(+)cM, not forcing, approximately 16-21 (you may adjust the range as you wish).
  
• 2♦: (5)6+ diamonds, unbalanced, denies a 4(+)cM, not forcing, approximately 16-21 (you may adjust the range as you wish).
  
• 2♥: 5(+) hearts, game forcing. Optionally play Birthright here, saving space on really big balanced hands. As if you had the standard auction 2♣-2♦; 2♥.
  
• 2♠: 5(+) spades, game forcing.
  
• 2NT: 22-24 balanced (SMP uses the direct 2NT opening as 20-21 and will rebid 3NT with 25-27 etc.).
  
• 3♣: (5)6+ clubs, unbalanced, denies a 4(+)cM, game forcing.
  
• 3♦: (5)6+ diamonds, unbalanced, denies a 4(+)cM, game forcing.
  
• 3♥+: Semi-preemptive bids showing minimum 1♣ openers with a very long and strong suit.

Then over 1♣-1♦; 1♥ we have:

• 1♠: 4+ spades, 0-7 ('wide ranging'), at most three hearts.
  
• 1NT: 0-4 at most 3-3 in the majors, second negative.
  
• 2♣: 5-7 at most 3 spades and 2 hearts.
  
• 2♦: 5-7 exactly 3 hearts.
  
• 2♥: 4(+) hearts, 0-4.
  
• 2♠+: 5-7 4(+) hearts, showing particular features (the original splits into balanced 3♥/shortage 2NT/two-suited with a good side suit 2♠/3♣/3♦).

The responses over 1♣-1♦; 1♠ are similar except that 2♥ by responder now requires 5-7 and 5(+)♥ (and denies three card spade support). Then finally over 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1NT we get:

• pass: No faith we'll get to a better spot, typically some 4441 or perhaps a minimum 4♥5m canapé.
  
• 2♣: Hearts + clubs, ambiguous relative lengths(!), not forcing. Approximately 16-21.
  
• 2♦: Hearts + diamonds, ambiguous relative lengths(!), not forcing. Approximately 16-21.
  
• 2♥: 6(+) hearts, not forcing. May perhaps be an escape with 4♠5♥ minimum.
  
• 2♠: 4♠5♥ 21+ GF (like a reverse).
  
• 2NT: 22-23 ish NF invitational, I don't know what exact shapes they assume.
  
• 3♣: GF 4♥5(+)♣.
  
• 3♦: GF 4♥5(+)♦.
  
• 3♥+: Shapely hands.

If you wish to avoid the 1♣-1♦; 1M-1NT; 2m ambiguous shapes you could either split those hands immediately (using the jumps 1♣-1♦; 2M for very strong hands isn't that great in the first place, so you could e.g. use those for two-suiters) or overhaul the structure in more thorough ways, for example by making the 2m rebids forcing and possibly artificial (e.g. use 2♣ as an artificial game forcing asking bid over 1NT). That being said I recommended earlier not putting too much time and effort into optimising this part of the system, and I think the SMP set is already plenty complicated and sufficiently effective.

[Gilithin]

I think some of the suggestions in this thread are ludicrous in the context of the OP where one of the players involved has never played bridge before. The most complicated system I could ever envisage here would be strength/weakness relays with natural follow-ups. That is:

After 1♣, 1♦ relay, others natural GF
After 1♣ - 1♦, 1♥ extras, others natural
After 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥, 1♠ relay, others natural GF
After 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠, 2♣ GF, others natural

That gives you a NT ladder of:-

11-13: 1D - 1M -- 1NT
14-16: 1NT
17-19: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1NT
20-22: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 1NT
23-24: 2NT (you can put this in the 1♥ rebid structure too of course. I am just illustrating the simplest version here.)
25+: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2♣ - 2♦ -- 2NT

And a suit ladder of:-

10-15: 1X/2♣
16-~19: 1♣ - 1♦- 1♠/2X
Acol 2: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2X/3♣
GF: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2♣ - 2♦ - 2M/3m

Even something like this though, is imho not really suitable for starting off. And the more complex strong club ideas floated here are well beyond this. SMP seems to have starter and advanced levels baked into it so it might be suitable. It's probably more complicated but more efficient. Honestly though, if this is the level of bidding theory you expect from a complete novice, I can well understand your wife refusing to play after a long break. Most social players just want to have some fun, not a major science project. Be careful not to drive your son away from the game in the same way.

[DavidKok]

Sorry, I agree and got carried away by the discussion of approaches. I recently played the C.C. Wei set of responses to 1♣ and think they are great for beginners. They are as follows:

1♣-?

• 1♦: 0-7 any
  
• 1♥: 8+ HCP, 5+ hearts, GF.
  
• 1♠: 8+ HCP, 5+ spades, GF.
  
• 1NT: 8+ HCP, balanced or any 4441, GF.
  
• 2♣: 8+ HCP, 5+ clubs, GF.
  
• 2♦: 8+ HCP, 5+ diamonds, GF.

Higher bids do not exist. Over any suit you bid naturally, raising majors with 3-card support, bidding your own 5(+)-card suits or bidding NT or raising partner's minor if no other bid is a better description.

Furthermore, over 1♣-1♦ the rebids are:

• 1♥: 5+ hearts, approximately 16-21, NF. Partner is expected to bid again with 5-7 or with good support.
  
• 1♠: 5+ spades, approximately 16-21, NF. Partner is expected to bid again with 5-7 or with good support.
  
• 1NT: Balanced or any 4441, 17-19, NF.
  
• 2♣: 5+ clubs, approximately 16-21, NF. Partner is expected to bid again with 5-7 or with good support.
  
• 2♦: 5+ diamonds, approximately 16-21, NF. Partner is expected to bid again with 5-7 or with good support.
  
• 2♥: 5+ hearts, GF.
  
• 2♠: 5+ spades, GF.
  
• 2NT: Balanced or any 4441, GF.
  
• 3♣: 5+ clubs, GF.
  
• 3♦: 5+ diamonds, GF.

The 2NT bid works best in a ladder where you use a 2NT opening to show approximately 20-22 balanced, so that your balanced hands in 1♣ are 17-19 or 23+. Very easy, quite effective on game hands and a great introduction to strong club systems.

[Shugart23]

Gilithin, on 2024-January-15, 07:47, said:

I think some of the suggestions in this thread are ludicrous in the context of the OP where one of the players involved has never played bridge before. The most complicated system I could ever envisage here would be strength/weakness relays with natural follow-ups. That is:

After 1♣, 1♦ relay, others natural GF
After 1♣ - 1♦, 1♥ extras, others natural
After 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥, 1♠ relay, others natural GF
After 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠, 2♣ GF, others natural

That gives you a NT ladder of:-

11-13: 1D - 1M -- 1NT
14-16: 1NT
17-19: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1NT
20-22: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 1NT
23-24: 2NT (you can put this in the 1♥ rebid structure too of course. I am just illustrating the simplest version here.)
25+: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2♣ - 2♦ -- 2NT

And a suit ladder of:-

10-15: 1X/2♣
16-~19: 1♣ - 1♦- 1♠/2X
Acol 2: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2X/3♣
GF: 1♣ - 1♦ -- 1♥ - 1♠ -- 2♣ - 2♦ - 2M/3m

Even something like this though, is imho not really suitable for starting off. And the more complex strong club ideas floated here are well beyond this. SMP seems to have starter and advanced levels baked into it so it might be suitable. It's probably more complicated but more efficient. Honestly though, if this is the level of bidding theory you expect from a complete novice, I can well understand your wife refusing to play after a long break. Most social players just want to have some fun, not a major science project. Be careful not to drive your son away from the game in the same way.

My wife not wanting to come back to play bridge had anything to do with me or the system that we had jointly developed over 9 years. Then the pandemic hit, and so we moved on to other things. I will add that she and I began our bridge journey using Oliver's system and he was gracious enough to help along the way. I have no regrets having started that way, and I unlike you, know my son and his capacity and interest to learn.

Here is the straw that broke the camels back for her, as an aside. During the course of play there was the AQ of a suit in the dummy. I was behind the dummy and I signaled for a lead of that suit, as if I had the King. In fact, she had the King. Declarer stopped play and asked what my signal meant and she explained our agreement is that I would like that suit led. So when declarer played that suit, he went up with the Ace, and later lost to my wife's King. At the end of the hand he groused about it and we asked if he would like to call the director and he said "no". Then for the next two hands he continued to grouse, effectively calling her a cheater. My wife took great offense and there was a scene. The director came over The declarer told his side of the story and we told ours and how he kept complaining for the rest of the round. The director explained to the declarer that she properly gave the explanation of the card that I had played. Later that night we got a call from the club saying something to the effect that they don't like players arguing and said there is a 30 day penalty on her and the declarer. . And that was the last day we played bridge

[PrecisionL]

Shugart23, on 2024-January-15, 04:59, said:

so canape with a 4 card Major after 1C-1D ? so 1C-1D-1S 1NT (2nd negative?) -2C shows 4 Spades, 5+ Clubs ?

YES!