[jillybean]

Kibitzing a local expert imported from my side of the Earth

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[smerriman]

I would have transferred, but there are so many varieties of Puppet to handle different shapes. Either way, the next bid is whatever agrees spades in the version being played; presumably 4♥.

[paulg]

I would have transferred too, as I don't play Puppet if I can avoid it. However in such auctions we swap 4♣ and 4♥, so the former agrees spades and shows non-specific slam interest and 4♥ shows four hearts and 5+ clubs with slam interest.

[DavidKok]

There are variations of Muppet [sic] Stayman in which you can bid 3♣ with 5-3 in the majors either way and find a possible fit in either suit. Some experts play this, and probably that is what happened here. In the 'traditional' Muppet Stayman you can only do this with 5 spades and 3 hearts, but versions exist that can handle both configurations.

[jillybean]

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The next bid was 4♣ cue, agreeing spades, partner now bids keycard.
Why would you respond anything other than showing 2?

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-January-06, 03:40, said:

There are variations of Muppet [sic] Stayman in which you can bid 3♣ with 5-3 in the majors either way and find a possible fit in either suit. Some experts play this, and probably that is what happened here. In the 'traditional' Muppet Stayman you can only do this with 5 spades and 3 hearts, but versions exist that can handle both configurations.

We put all 5M4M and 5M3M through our "Puppet" Stayman, so transfers have the inference of at most 2 in oM if revealed to be 5= card.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-January-06, 09:04, said:

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The next bid was 4♣ cue, agreeing spades, partner now bids keycard.
Why would you respond anything other than showing 2?

We too play 4m as a control-showing cue, agreeing spades, but would continue that way rather than ask keycards.
If partner did ask, I would respond other than showing 2 only if diamonds were void.

[AL78]

I'm late to this thread but I would have bid 4♣ as you did and would bid 5♥ in response to RCKB showing two key cards without the queen. I can't see any reason to do anything else.

[jillybean]

Does 6♠ cross your (anyones) mind?

[jillybean]

paulg, on 2024-January-06, 02:49, said:

I would have transferred too, as I don't play Puppet if I can avoid it.

Why not?

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2024-January-06, 12:56, said:

Does 6♠ cross your (anyones) mind?

Only if partner is prone to signing off with one key card missing. But are you sure 4NT was a KC ask?

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2024-January-06, 09:04, said:

The next bid was 4♣ cue, agreeing spades

pescetom, on 2024-January-06, 10:27, said:

We too play 4m as a control-showing cue, agreeing spades

AL78, on 2024-January-06, 11:12, said:

I would have bid 4♣ as you did

I know I said there are numerous forms of Puppet but I don't understand this one at all. Swapping the definitions of 4♣ and 4♥ so 4♣ is artificial agreeing spades makes sense, but if it also shows a club control how do you bid any hand that doesn't have spade support? 3-4 hearts, 2 or less spades, e.g. slam interest in a minor?

Perhaps in the OP 4♣ was natural, as was 4NT, which would make 6♠ make a little more sense.

[fuzzyquack]

Difficult to state any educated answer without knowing their system. To cater for poor memory, I'd jump to 6♠. Of course, we may be in a ♠ slam opposite Q9xx, AKx, AKQx, Kx should the system forget happened earlier.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2024-January-06, 14:06, said:

I know I said there are numerous forms of Puppet but I don't understand this one at all. Swapping the definitions of 4♣ and 4♥ so 4♣ is artificial agreeing spades makes sense, but if it also shows a club control how do you bid any hand that doesn't have spade support? 3-4 hearts, 2 or less spades, e.g. slam interest in a minor?

Perhaps in the OP 4♣ was natural, as was 4NT, which would make 6♠ make a little more sense.

I speak for myself and not the others you included in your multiquote.
If 2NT opener shows a 5M we play that 4m (as mentioned) and oM are control-bids fixing trumps, 3NT is natural and 4M is signoff.
Bang for buck I think it is better than compromises which allow some suits to be natural.
Bear in mind that any 5M3M will be in Stayman and not Transfer.

[smerriman]

Ah, OK. So you wouldn't bid Puppet at all if there was a chance of a minor suit slam (e.g 4-1 in the majors alongside) - just give up on the potential heart fit? (Or maybe find it via some other means.)

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2024-January-06, 16:23, said:

Ah, OK. So you wouldn't bid Puppet at all if there was a chance of a minor suit slam (e.g 4-1 in the majors alongside) - just give up on the potential heart fit? (Or maybe find it via some other means.)

No, we would always bid the "Puppet" with a 4 card major unless we had 6 cards in oM.
We can show a lateral 5 card minor with slam interest in case of misfit in the major.

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2024-January-06, 16:40, said:

We can show a lateral 5 card minor with slam interest in case of misfit in the major.

How? Given all of your 4 level bids are used up, you mean:
2N - 3♣
3♠ - 5m?
Probably not my cup of tea opposite potentially 2 card support, but maybe these hands are rare.

[mikeh]

Late to the thread but:

If I were playing in a casual, though possibly expert, partnership I’d for sure not assume that 4C was agreeing spades. The ‘normal’ method is 4H. I can see some benefit (but not much) to swapping 4C and 4H, but that would require a level of agreement that I’d not expert outside if a settled partnership or considerable discussion.

If one were playing that method, I’m curious to how one can possibly play that all 4x bids below 4S not only agree spades but also show a control. I note that pescetom claims that he can puppet, use the 4 level to agree spades and also show a long minor. I’m baffled. I don’t see how that’s possible in any plausible method.

Back to the OP: absent discussion about the frankly bizarre notion (bizarre if not playing a switch between 4C and 4H) that 4C was a cuebid agreeing spades (wtf does one have to do to bid a 5 card minor with slam interest?), it wouldn’t occur to me that 4N was keycard

In my main partnership we have the agreement that anyone who bids a strong notrump cannot thereafter use keycard, but that’s far from mainstream (I like it because 4N has many good uses other than keycard plus it’s usually difficult for the notrump hand, when partner is unlimited, to place the contract merely on the basis of the keycard response).

I’d have thought that 4N was a regressive bid, showing no interest in clubs. That’s independent of my idiosyncratic rule that the notrump hand can’t keycard. Neither player should ever be able to keycard prior to suit agreement. Note, btw, that despite the attitude that seems to permeate non-expert bridge it is not only possible but sometimes the most effective way to bid slams or even grand slams without using keycard!

If I were sure, by prior agreement, that 4C was a cue agreeing spades and that opener felt that it was best for him to ask for keycards despite knowing very little about responder’s hand, then of course I show two without the queen. But partner better have a VERY strange hand not to have cuebid a red control.

I defy you to create a hand for him where he will know what to bid after you show two keycards and no kings. Hint: if he has AKx in hearts, how does he know you have five heart tricks most of the time. And if he has Ax(x) in diamonds, how does he know that you’re scoring low trumps by ruffing?

Personally, I think I’d not have gone looking for spades…I’d prefer to transfer. I’m not at all clear about how puppet finds hearts opposite something like Kx AKx AKxx KQxx. He’s far more likely to hold 3 hearts than 5 spades, so I don’t understand the use of puppet here.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand, I have nothing more to add.

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[sfi]

Obviously they are best placed to explain the auction. But the explanation that makes the most sense to is that they were in the middle of a bidding misunderstanding. South meant 4C as a cue but it was taken as natural. North tried to sign off in 4NT but South realised something was awry and took a stab at the right slam.

Something else may be going on, but it's hard to see how the 4C - 4NT - 6S finish makes sense in a well-constructed auction where both partners were on the same page.