[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2023-December-11, 08:24, said:

What would 4♣ mean after West bids 3NT in that sequence? If it is natural and a slam try that would allow West to sign off in 4NT if they are not interested, else show a control.

Natural. ... Unless you NEVER open 2C with a 2-suiter, let alone a 3-suiter, which would make 4C a control bid,
setting diamonds.

Assume natural, you would need to be on firm ground, say 4D sets diamonds, 4H / 4S are control bids for club.
... or the other way round.
If you have this agreement, you could play 4NT as natural.

It gets messy. Those auctions are rare.

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2023-December-11, 12:29, said:

My source was a course from Bernie Chazen.

What do *you* think the second negative is after 3♦? And what is *your* source?

Next suit up, with 3N as a cipher for that suit is one alternative

[mikeh]

mw64ahw, on 2023-December-11, 12:11, said:

I guess you bid 3♥ as a 2nd negative?

Guessed wrong

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-December-11, 12:28, said:

No, West has a simple 3NT bid over 3D, what else?

yes, ignore that. I'm multitasking, preparing boards (incl. this one) for a big xmas game on Wednesday, writing xmas cards, browsing forums, wrapping gifts for a xmas luncheon today, you get the idea.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2023-December-11, 10:43, said:

The awful start to auction is going to make it difficult to get to 3nt

FWIW, my Kokish 2NT start would have elicted 3NT.
Even if we decided to bid this initially as a single-suiter in diamonds and then see what dropped out, we would have stopped in 4NT.

[bluenikki]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-December-11, 12:56, said:

Next suit up, with 3N as a cipher for that suit is one alternative

You seem to. be talking in terms of a partnership with dozens of hours of discussions.

What if your discussion time is in single digits? You will not reach the auction
2♣ - 2♦ ; 3♦ - ?

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2023-December-11, 13:51, said:

You seem to. be talking in terms of a partnership with dozens of hours of discussions.

What your discussion time is in single digits? You will not reach the auction
2♣ - 2♦ ; 3♦ - ?

It's not uncommon to play Herbert second negatives here to avoid wrongsiding NT in auctions like 2♣-2♦-2♠-2N and this is just an extension of that

[DavidKok]

bluenikki, on 2023-December-11, 12:29, said:

What do *you* think the second negative is after 3♦? And what is *your* source?

I don't have a second negative here, and my source is that I made it up. I used to have a second negative here (3♥) and it cost us a board once or twice, I suggested just doing away with them and the roof hasn't caved in yet. Currently I have no desire to revert that change.

There is a serious lack of bidding space after a 2♣ opening, especially if opener has a long minor suit. Rather than sort out double negative (~0-4) versus regular negative (~5-7) I have gotten reasonable results with using all the available bidding space to sort out shape rather than strength. To be exact, since 2♣ is either 22-23 bal or forcing to game, we are not going to hit the brakes below 3NT anyway.

[mikeh]

bluenikki, on 2023-December-11, 12:29, said:

My source was a course from Bernie Chazen.

What do *you* think the second negative is after 3♦? And what is *your* source?

I would never play second negative unless being paid a lot of money by a stubborn or very weak client

I use 2H as an immediate second negative and believe it to be both theoretically and in practice superior to any delayed second negative

My source? 50 years of playing, often at a high level, discussions with teammates, who include past world champions, coaching from the legendary Eric Kokish, reading many years of The Bridge World, and innumerable discussions with my peers.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2023-December-11, 17:33, said:

I don't have a second negative here, and my source is that I made it up. I used to have a second negative here (3♥) and it cost us a board once or twice, I suggested just doing away with them and the roof hasn't caved in yet. Currently I have no desire to revert that change.

There is a serious lack of bidding space after a 2♣ opening, especially if opener has a long minor suit. Rather than sort out double negative (~0-4) versus regular negative (~5-7) I have gotten reasonable results with using all the available bidding space to sort out shape rather than strength. To be exact, since 2♣ is either 22-23 bal or forcing to game, we are not going to hit the brakes below 3NT anyway.

I personally would prefer not to have any second neg either.

That won't help me with a pick-up partner, who might or might not have other ideas.

[jillybean]

Does anyone have time for this level of discussion with a pickup partner?

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2023-December-11, 19:40, said:

Does anyone have time for this level of discussion with a pickup partner?

I had a discussion with a pickup partner that included the auction 3♣-4♦(!) (0-1-1-2-2 RKCB), and it came up. (The actual auction included a double of 4♦ by opps, which wasn't discussed, but we were on the same wavelength.)

This kind of thing takes 5 seconds to discuss if both of you already know the convention. Sure there are quite a few other 5 second things before you get to this one, but it fits inside 15 minutes.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2023-December-11, 19:40, said:

Does anyone have time for this level of discussion with a pickup partner?

No.

That's why on BBO I almost never play with a pickup partner.

And F2F I hand them a real CC and ask "what if any of this are you unable to understand and/or unwilling to play?".
Not that we will have time to get down to details of convention developments, agreed (but it should be more or less understood that we will avoid the more obvious traps and have agreed to play in order to have fun rather than win).