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Txfer club Off to a slow start

#21 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2024-January-06, 18:30

View Postjillybean, on 2024-January-06, 18:17, said:

We are still off to a slow start playing these transfers.

1 1 or 1 *
1M

What does your accept of the transfer promise?

There are two basic schools of thought. The first is that you accept with 3-card support and anything short of a real game-force. Other bids deny 3-card support and 1NT shows a weak NT (or whatever your normal range is).

The second is that you accept with your weak NT hands (again, adjust if required) and 1NT shows something like 18-19 balanced. This frees up 2NT for something else useful.

In either approach you can use your normal 4-card raises or new suits that don't show a fit. Either one works fine, so make a choice and start working with it.

The next question you have to work out is what you do over an auction like 1C - 1H; 1S. Basically, responder treats opener as a weak NT until it becomes clear they have a stronger hand. Two-way checkback (XYZ) works well but may be complex for the partnership. I suspect other approaches with a 2C checkback would be okay too.
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#22 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2024-January-06, 22:46

View Postjillybean, on 2024-January-06, 18:17, said:

We are still off to a slow start playing these transfers.

1 1 or 1 *
1M

What does your accept of the transfer promise?

It used to be popular to play it as 3 cards in the suit and while that remains in use at club level, almost no top pairs seem to play it any more. The most common agreement is that it shows a Weak NT. The second agreement you see is either a Weak NT or a minimum unbalanced hand with 3 card support and no convenient rebid, ie a hand that would have made a 3 card raise in Standard. Both of these make a lot of sense.
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#23 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2024-January-06, 23:49

View Postjillybean, on 2024-January-06, 18:17, said:

We are still off to a slow start playing these transfers.

1 1 or 1 *
1M

What does your accept of the transfer promise?

https://www.bridgeba...ance-over-club/
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#24 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 06:09

Thanks, this is what I was missing.

View Postnullve, on 2021-March-22, 04:07, said:

It is possible to combine T-Walsh (aka transfer responses to (a natural or short) 1) with a completely standard (5533) opening structure. (See e.g. this convention card belonging to young Norwegian internationals Grude-Bakke.)

But some like to open 1 with 18-19 BAL a little more often than in standard. In the Norwegian BOA system, for example, 1 is also opened with 2443 and 4243. And I mentioned in another thread that Brogeland-Lindqvist, perhaps inspired by the (locally very influential) BOA system, open 1 also with 4342 in their otherwise natural 5542 system.

But opening 1 on more strong balanced hands, especially hands with only two clubs, puts extra pressure on Responder who no longer has an easy pass on subpositive hands without an actual club suit.

Of the two dominant T-Walsh styles that mikeh described, the one where

1-[1M-1]; 1N = 18-19 BAL (or 17-19 BAL in an opening structure with 14-16 NT), 2-3 M,

is undoubtedly the one better suited to handle responses on subpositive hands, because the bidding can now go e.g.

1-1*
1N**-P

* 4+ H
** 18-19 BAL, 2-3 H

instead of

1-1*
2N**-P

* 4+ H
** 18-19 BAL, 2 H

with, say, 18 hcp and 4234 opposite 3 hcp and 3442; and either

1-1*
1N**-2***
P

* 4+ S
** 18-19 BAL, 2-3 S
*** to play

or

1-1*
1N**-2***
2-P

* 4+ S
** 18-19 BAL, 2-3 S
*** transfer to spades

instead of (say)

1-1*
2N**-P

* 4+ S
** 18-19 BAL, 2 S

with 19 hcp and 2335 opposite 2 hcp and 5341.



View Postmikeh, on 2021-March-21, 17:56, said:

There are two main schools of thought, divided by what accepting the transfer into 1M shows.

For many, it promise 3 card support. With a minimum and 4, just bid 2M, as you would have done had partner made a natural 1M response.

For others, including in my two expert partnerships, accepting the transfer shows 2 or 3 card support, usually a balanced or semi-balanced minimum.

The main implications of this have to do with the 1N rebid. The first school will treat it as minimum, balanced (one sub-school permits a stiff in the major, if no other bid appeals, while the other has 1N always delivering a doubleton)

The main reason we prefer the acceptance to be 2-3 cards is that it allows 1N to be a big hand. If you play 15-17 notrump, then the rebid is 18-19. We play 14-16, so the rebid is 17-19. The fact that we play 14-16 is a good reason for this style, since having to jump to 2N with a 17 count can lead to some bad contracts...we stretch to respond to 1C.

Another dividing line amongst transfer players is how many clubs one promises with 1C.

With one partner, it is 2+, and we will not open 1C with 4-2 minors. We will with 3=3=4=3 minimums. In the other partnership, we are more aggressive, because we want to increase the frequency of the transfer auctions, plus we play 1D is usually 5 cards.

Ok, say you play our style. There are 1level responses to consider. We shall take them in order.

1C 1D

Shows 4+ hearts.

1C 1D 1H shows 2-3, balanced or semi-balanced, minimum opener.

Play 2C forces 2D, for all invitational hands. 2D is artificial, forcing to game. Note, meanings for various jumps by responder are a matter for discussion. We have specific agreements but they’re too long to post here.

1C 1D 1S promise 4+ spades and longer clubs. It does not deny 2-3 hearts, but shows an unbalanced hand. Don’t play xyz here....responder, with a weak hand, may need to bail out in 2C, so play 4SF here with good hands.

1C 1D 1N: 17-19 (or 18-19) balanced fewer than 4 hearts.

In one partnership I play xyz here. In the other I play transfers....2C through 2S are all transfers, but 2C doesn’t promise diamonds....it may be invitational. 1C 1D 1N 2D is a transfer, either to play or game force. This allows for setting trump low for slam exploration. Note...we are very much an imp-oriented partnership

1C 1D 1H 1S. This can be played in various ways. We use it to show 4 spades, non-forcing. We may have up to invitational values.



1C 1H 1S...as above

1C 1H 1N...as above

1C 1S:

This is a little tricky. It denies a major unless responder has longer diamonds and game force values, but it does not promise diamonds. For example, with say xxx Qxx KJx Jxxx, we can’t raise clubs, since partner may have 2 and often has only 3. We open virtually all flat 11 counts, because of our 14-16 notrump range, so our 1N response to 1C shows 9-11. Thus 1S is either diamonds or 5-8 balanced. If 1N is 8-10, then 1S, if balanced, is 5-7.

Opener will usually bid 1N, and can do it with a stiff diamond if the hand is otherwise suitable. Or opener can bid 2C or reverse, etc.

Any pair wanting to try this out should ideally spend a bit of time at something like the bbo partnership bidding tables, programming various hands, the constraints depending on which approach or approaches you like.

You’re going to come up with some difficult situations. Here’s one we encountered recently

I don’t remember the cards, but I was 3=4=1=5 with a solid opening hand, about 16 hcp....just on the borderline of a reverse, but my honour distribution was not good.

1C 1H

I had to bid 1S even though that is usually balanced or semi-balanced minimum

Partner bid 2C, puppet to 2D. He will often have 4 spades, longer diamonds, and plans to pass 2D.

We now have an agreement that with a minimum hand I bid 2S and with extras, more than he’s expecting, I bid 2H, specially showing this shape and approximate values.

One last point: not needing the jump to 2N as balanced, you can use it for something else. We use it to show a strong hand with long clubs and precisely 3 card support...the Bridge World nightmare hand, which is unbiddable in standard methods

"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
“Let me put it in words you might understand,” he said. “Mr. Trump, f–k off!” Anders Vistisen
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#25 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 08:36

Playing the style of transfer where we accept with 2-3 cards, R is expected to bid 1nt after transfers with 4 cards, min hand?

1C 1D*
1H 1nt.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
“Let me put it in words you might understand,” he said. “Mr. Trump, f–k off!” Anders Vistisen
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#26 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 09:01

View Postmikeh, on 2023-December-09, 13:46, said:

Did you mistype? 1C 2D? I suspect 1C 1D.

As to whether east ought to have overcalled, west is a passed hand and the spade suit is emaciated. Plus the vulnerability is the worst possible for competing….at best we’re hoping to buy the contract in 2S or so…..and probably higher…..and we run a serious risk of -200 v a partial, or worse. Matchpoints rightly makes us do things that are silly at imps, because of the main criterion at mps being freqyency of gain rather than size of gain. If I go for 1100 one quarter of the time, getting a zero, that’s ok provided that I get a good result, from my risky action, more frequently. I’d happily get a zero on 25% of the hands if I’m getting a top on 50% and breaking even otherwise.

So I don’t mind a pass as east. Give me say K108xx in spades and the overcall would be far more attractive. Some may think…what’s the difference? Give partner J9x and an entry (he won5 be competing without something) and K108xx may play for one loser and at most two. K6543 opposite J9x has two inescapable losers and could easily lose three. Plus an opp is more likely to apply the axe with say Q1087 than with Q543.


I would tend to overcall on the East hand because they are playing a relay system and such systems are vulnerable to interference. It is rare to get doubled for penalties at a low level. I wouldn't do it at IMPS but MPs tactics encourages poor bidding and you'd be surprised how frequently unsound actions work or at least don't cost.
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#27 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 09:02

View Postjillybean, on 2024-January-07, 08:36, said:

Playing the style of transfer where we accept with 2-3 cards, R is expected to bid 1nt after transfers with 4 cards, min hand?

1C 1D*
1H 1nt.

Some play
1-1
1-1NT as
and
1-1
1-1 as a relay to 1NT, which gives responder the opportunity to show some distributional/invitational hands
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#28 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 10:23

View PostAL78, on 2024-January-07, 09:01, said:

I would tend to overcall on the East hand because they are playing a relay system and such systems are vulnerable to interference. It is rare to get doubled for penalties at a low level. I wouldn't do it at IMPS but MPs tactics encourages poor bidding and you'd be surprised how frequently unsound actions work or at least don't cost.
I expect that this behaviour alone is a noticeable advantage of relay. In fact, it might be the main one.

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-January-07, 09:02, said:

Some play
1-1
1-1NT as
and
1-1
1-1 as a relay to 1NT, which gives responder the opportunity to show some distributional/invitational hands
In this style I would play
1-1;
1-1NT as both majors, not forcing
and
1-1;
1-1 as an asking bid for opener to describe their hand further, splitting bal and unbal on the next round.
I tried to suggest this before but it mostly caused confusion.
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#29 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 10:44

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-January-07, 09:02, said:

Some play
1-1
1-1NT as
and
1-1
1-1 as a relay to 1NT, which gives responder the opportunity to show some distributional/invitational hands

holy crap
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
“Let me put it in words you might understand,” he said. “Mr. Trump, f–k off!” Anders Vistisen
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#30 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 13:48

Picking up some pace...



2 inv-g/f with diamonds
Do you play 2S 4sf here, it has to be.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
“Let me put it in words you might understand,” he said. “Mr. Trump, f–k off!” Anders Vistisen
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#31 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 15:39

View Postjillybean, on 2024-January-07, 13:48, said:

Picking up some pace...



2 inv-g/f with diamonds
Do you play 2S 4sf here, it has to be.

Has to be? There also has to be a way of finding a 4-4 spade fit if Opener is 4=4=3=2, so if you play this as 4SF, either 2 denies 4 spades or (more likely) 2 promises real clubs and Opener rebids 2NT with a big balanced hand. As long as everything is consistent, it is fine. You might also want to consider restricting the 2 response more than just to INV+. You have a lot of bids available here to show minor-oriented hands so I am sure there is a better division. Maybe a look at the 1 response would offer a better way forward than discussing this 2 call in isolation.
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#32 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 15:44

This was the topic of a discussion recently, as well as several times before it. Personally I think it is a good idea to get either single-suited invitational hands or the single-suited weak hands out of the T-Walsh responses, that way giving a transfer and then offering the suit again has a narrowly defined range. If partner was going to complete the transfer or bid 1NT we're probably fine, but if partner has an unbalanced hand and repeats the clubs we can be stuck for a rebid.
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#33 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 16:35

"It has to be" said somewhat cheekily. I realize that nothing in this game is set in stone.
My head is spinning with this transfer/club system. I'm interested to see how you can take Inv- single-suited hands out of the responses.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
“Let me put it in words you might understand,” he said. “Mr. Trump, f–k off!” Anders Vistisen
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#34 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 02:35

View PostGilithin, on 2024-January-06, 22:46, said:

It used to be popular to play it as 3 cards in the suit and while that remains in use at club level, almost no top pairs seem to play it any more.

Well, several pairs played just that in last year's Bermuda Bowl, for example.

http://systems.world...WBTBermuda_Bowl
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#35 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 03:26

View Postnullve, on 2024-January-08, 02:35, said:

Well, several pairs played just that in last year's Bermuda Bowl, for example.

http://systems.world...WBTBermuda_Bowl

Looking through the cards, I found the following:
  • 8 9 pairs played that accepting the transfer shows 3 cards in the suit. Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.
  • 6 pairs accepted the transfer with balanced minimums, so 2+ (maybe occasionally 1) in the suit. A 1NT rebid showed a stronger hand than a 1NT opening.
  • 1 (NZ) pair played both. I'm not sure how this is workable, but the pair has won more world titles than I have so I presume they know what they are doing.
  • 8 pairs did not have sufficient information about their follow-ups to work out their approach. 1 of these pairs reference a note, but their notes were not included in the system card on the site above.

There are serious name pairs in both camps. It seems both approaches are alive and well at the top levels.

Edited to fix misreading of card.
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#36 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 04:20

View Postsfi, on 2024-January-08, 03:26, said:

Looking through the cards, I found the following:
  • 8 pairs played that accepting the transfer shows 3 cards in the suit. Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.
  • 6 pairs accepted the transfer with balanced minimums, so 2+ (maybe occasionally 1) in the suit. A 1NT rebid showed a stronger hand than a 1NT opening.
  • 1 (NZ) pair played both. I'm not sure how this is workable, but the pair has won more world titles than I have so I presume they know what they are doing.
  • 8 pairs did not have sufficient information about their follow-ups to work out their approach. 1 of these pairs reference a note, but their notes were not included in the system card on the site above.

There are serious name pairs in both camps. It seems both approaches are alive and well at the top levels.

'Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.'
The New Zealand pairs seem to do it the other way round?




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#37 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 04:20

View Postsfi, on 2024-January-08, 03:26, said:

Looking through the cards, I found the following:
  • 8 pairs played that accepting the transfer shows 3 cards in the suit. Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.
  • 6 pairs accepted the transfer with balanced minimums, so 2+ (maybe occasionally 1) in the suit. A 1NT rebid showed a stronger hand than a 1NT opening.
  • 1 (NZ) pair played both. I'm not sure how this is workable, but the pair has won more world titles than I have so I presume they know what they are doing.
  • 8 pairs did not have sufficient information about their follow-ups to work out their approach. 1 of these pairs reference a note, but their notes were not included in the system card on the site above.

There are serious name pairs in both camps. It seems both approaches are alive and well at the top levels.

'Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.'
The New Zealand pairs seem to do it the other way round?




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#38 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 04:30

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-January-08, 04:20, said:

'Several also accepted with 4-card support and a balanced minimum, leaving two of the major to show an unbalanced minimum.'
The New Zealand pairs seem to do it the other way round?

Never mind - I misread their card and thought 1NT showed the 18-19 balanced (rather than 2NT). So they are the 9th pair in the first category.
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#39 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 04:44

View Postsfi, on 2024-January-08, 04:30, said:

Never mind - I misread their card and thought 1NT showed the 18-19 balanced (rather than 2NT). So they are the 9th pair in the first category.

I do it the way you initially wrote, but maybe I should switch.
If responder is bidding on nothing then 1M seems preferable for the balanced hand unless the 2nd seat Pass now wants to X for
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#40 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 04:55

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-January-08, 04:44, said:

I do it the way you initially wrote, but maybe I should switch.
If responder is bidding on nothing then 1M seems preferable for the balanced hand unless the 2nd seat Pass now wants to X for

I've only ever played the first way, but you and Mike both make sensible arguments for switching. Something to consider next time a partnership of mine takes this approach.
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