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Against a 4♠ opening, what do people typically play in order to get into the auction with a decent hand? I've heard of 4NT as takeout and X as values/penalty oriented but am curious if there is much else. Also, what is the minimum strength hand you would hold to want to come in to the auction at this level?
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Bidding over high level pre-empts
#1
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Posted 2023-September-01, 12:52
#2
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Posted 2023-September-01, 13:05
There is a world of difference between a 'values' and a 'penalty' double. In particular:
In general, most modern doubles say "I don't have a good bid but I do have some values. Partner, what do you think?". At a low level of the auction, say, the 1- or 2-level, it is almost always correct for partner to introduce their own suit when hearing this message. This is a standard takeout double. As the bidding gets higher it takes ever more extreme hands for the percentage action to be to declare rather than defend. Accordingly, partner is expected to convert the double more often. That doesn't mean the double has become penalties - it is still "I have values and no good bid", often called "convertible values" or even just "values". But over 4♠ we would expect partner to have quite a lot of shape, for example a 6-card suit or two long suits, or extra values that make investigating slam realistic, before pulling. It is simply much easier to collect 4 tricks than to collect 11.
Way back when people played actual penalty doubles. The type that says "if you pull this, look for a new partner. I'm sitting here with four trumps to the ace queen nine and two outside honours.". Unsurprisingly, holding this hand type after the opponents announced holding a long suit is very low frequency, and these doubles have gone out of fashion. A lot of people will put 'takeout through 4♥' on their system card, but usually this is inaccurate disclosure rather than a change in agreement at the 4♠-level. And if it isn't, I'd highly recommend changing your agreements.
4NT 'two places to play' (partner almost always bids their best minor suit, and we pull if partner picked our short suit), 5-level a suggestion to play. There's not much room to do anything more intelligent at such a high level. Keep in mind that if we bid something at the 5-level we may well have converted a plus into a minus, so we should have a reasonable expectation of making to bid at all. If we don't have that, double is usually better.
In general, most modern doubles say "I don't have a good bid but I do have some values. Partner, what do you think?". At a low level of the auction, say, the 1- or 2-level, it is almost always correct for partner to introduce their own suit when hearing this message. This is a standard takeout double. As the bidding gets higher it takes ever more extreme hands for the percentage action to be to declare rather than defend. Accordingly, partner is expected to convert the double more often. That doesn't mean the double has become penalties - it is still "I have values and no good bid", often called "convertible values" or even just "values". But over 4♠ we would expect partner to have quite a lot of shape, for example a 6-card suit or two long suits, or extra values that make investigating slam realistic, before pulling. It is simply much easier to collect 4 tricks than to collect 11.
Way back when people played actual penalty doubles. The type that says "if you pull this, look for a new partner. I'm sitting here with four trumps to the ace queen nine and two outside honours.". Unsurprisingly, holding this hand type after the opponents announced holding a long suit is very low frequency, and these doubles have gone out of fashion. A lot of people will put 'takeout through 4♥' on their system card, but usually this is inaccurate disclosure rather than a change in agreement at the 4♠-level. And if it isn't, I'd highly recommend changing your agreements.
4NT 'two places to play' (partner almost always bids their best minor suit, and we pull if partner picked our short suit), 5-level a suggestion to play. There's not much room to do anything more intelligent at such a high level. Keep in mind that if we bid something at the 5-level we may well have converted a plus into a minus, so we should have a reasonable expectation of making to bid at all. If we don't have that, double is usually better.
#3
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Posted 2023-September-01, 13:36
It is common, but not universal,to use the direct 4N overcall of a 4S opening, to show a good two suiter…a good hand with 5-5 or better. Advancer chooses the lowest suit he’s willing to name as trump…5C would say, for example…if you have clubs as one of your suits, let’s play here. Say you held 3=5=2=3…if partner has clubs and hearts, you’ll miss that heart fit…too bad…preempts work. But if he has the reds, he’ll bid 5D and now you can bid hearts.
If you had,say, 3=4=4=2, you’d bid 5D, knowing that with clubs and hearts he will pull to 5H….by bypassing 5C,you say that ‘I prefer your red suit if you have clubs and a red suit’.
If you play double of 4S as penalty, which was ‘standard’ when I learned to play, then 4N has to be a three suited takeout. However, that’s not a good treatment. As David observed, penalty hands are rare. And forcing partner to bid a suit at the five level when we’re 1444 is not usually a good idea. Picture poor partner with say 3=3=3=4 modest hand, having to try for 11 tricks! Knowing that all the suits rate to break badly.
As for what one needs to be able to double, my rule of thumb is at a minimum the equivalent of a strong notrump, usually nothing in spades and classically 2443/1444 but one can’t always wait for perfect shape.
Note also, and this is very important: advancer does not commit to a suit if he has two (or three) playable suits…he bids 4N which shows ‘2 places to play’. Sidenote: (4S) x (P) 4N (P) 5C (P) 5H can be played as a ‘strong 5H bid…trying for slam’.
As another side note, yesterday I held AKQx xx 10xx KQ10x at unfavourable and the bidding went (3H) P (4H) to me. At this vulnerability, we could be and often are getting robbed. I doubled, giving partner the choice of -590 if he guessed the lead (overtricks if not) or -800 if he bid. My hand was absolutely the weakest I could hold, imo, and if you reversed the majors, such that they bid 3S 4S and I was 2=4=3=4, I’d go quietly, even though we could well be getting robbed here as well.
If you had,say, 3=4=4=2, you’d bid 5D, knowing that with clubs and hearts he will pull to 5H….by bypassing 5C,you say that ‘I prefer your red suit if you have clubs and a red suit’.
If you play double of 4S as penalty, which was ‘standard’ when I learned to play, then 4N has to be a three suited takeout. However, that’s not a good treatment. As David observed, penalty hands are rare. And forcing partner to bid a suit at the five level when we’re 1444 is not usually a good idea. Picture poor partner with say 3=3=3=4 modest hand, having to try for 11 tricks! Knowing that all the suits rate to break badly.
As for what one needs to be able to double, my rule of thumb is at a minimum the equivalent of a strong notrump, usually nothing in spades and classically 2443/1444 but one can’t always wait for perfect shape.
Note also, and this is very important: advancer does not commit to a suit if he has two (or three) playable suits…he bids 4N which shows ‘2 places to play’. Sidenote: (4S) x (P) 4N (P) 5C (P) 5H can be played as a ‘strong 5H bid…trying for slam’.
As another side note, yesterday I held AKQx xx 10xx KQ10x at unfavourable and the bidding went (3H) P (4H) to me. At this vulnerability, we could be and often are getting robbed. I doubled, giving partner the choice of -590 if he guessed the lead (overtricks if not) or -800 if he bid. My hand was absolutely the weakest I could hold, imo, and if you reversed the majors, such that they bid 3S 4S and I was 2=4=3=4, I’d go quietly, even though we could well be getting robbed here as well.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#4
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Posted 2023-September-01, 13:39
On the auction (4♠)-X-(P)-? it is superior to play 4NT-then-5♥ as a weak hand with hearts and the direct 5♥ as a stronger/constructive hand, rather than the other way around. The point is that if doubler picks diamonds, so (4♠)-X-(P)-4NT; (P)-5♦, we can no longer make an unambiguous slam try. It is less important to distinguish 'hearts + clubs, weak' from 'weak with hearts only' on that auction than 'hearts + clubs, weak' from 'slam try in hearts', given that partner has soft clubs.
#5
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Posted 2023-September-01, 13:54
DavidKok, on 2023-September-01, 13:39, said:
On the auction (4♠)-X-(P)-? it is superior to play 4NT-then-5♥ as a weak hand with hearts and the direct 5♥ as a stronger/constructive hand, rather than the other way around. The point is that if doubler picks diamonds, so (4♠)-X-(P)-4NT; (P)-5♦, we can no longer make an unambiguous slam try. It is less important to distinguish 'hearts + clubs, weak' from 'weak with hearts only' on that auction than 'hearts + clubs, weak' from 'slam try in hearts', given that partner has soft clubs.
You’re right
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#6
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Posted 2023-September-01, 14:01
Thanks for those two replies, they sound very good and I will try to digest then discuss with partner. My query was in response to an irritating hand where we got stuffed up after partner opened 4♠ and partner asked whether we play X as penalties and 4NT as takeout.
For your entertainment, this was the hand which motivated me to ask about the hand strength people typically need to come in over a high pre-empt:
This made when declarer correctly plays me for heart length and was a bottom for us after no-one else got there and most didn't open the East hand 4♠ so a couple bought the hand in 3♠. When I saw the dummy I questioned to myself whether a weak NT hand with scattered values was really good enough to be coming in at the four level.
For your entertainment, this was the hand which motivated me to ask about the hand strength people typically need to come in over a high pre-empt:
This made when declarer correctly plays me for heart length and was a bottom for us after no-one else got there and most didn't open the East hand 4♠ so a couple bought the hand in 3♠. When I saw the dummy I questioned to myself whether a weak NT hand with scattered values was really good enough to be coming in at the four level.
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