[AL78]

MPs in a mixed field:

♠KQT842
♥8
♦A96432
♣ -

Vuln against not you open 1♠ in first seat, partner responds 2♥, no opposition bidding. What is your next bid?

[DavidKok]

3♦ and pray. Do not conceal shape.

There is a good chance that we'll get too high (possibly accompanied with a lecture on how 3♦ shows extras so the system bid is 2♠), but with a 6-6 we have to get our suits in. I think 3♦ is better in the long run, even if it puts partner in an awkward position with long hearts and clubs.

[mikeh]

I think it would be helpful to know the system basics. Are we playing 2H as creating a game force? If not, then presumably 3D has to show extras, since it’s normal (in non 2/1 methods) for 3D to force to game.

If we’re in a gf auction, then a 2S rebid will often see a 2N bid by responder, forcing, while if not yet forced to game, I assume 2N could be passed (I haven’t played 2H as less than gf for 40+ years, hence my ignorance).

In what follows I assume 2H was gf, although it doesn’t make a big difference to my thinking.

At imps, 3D seems obvious. While the auction rates to be problematic, the slight chance of finding a diamond game or (especially) slam outweighs the substantial risk that we’re going to get way too high.

At mps, however, I’m not convinced that bidding this hand as a strong 5=5 is the best approach. I’d rather treat it as a modest 6=4/6=5, and I do that by rebidding 2S, hoping to be able to show diamonds next. Indeed, if we have a diamond fit he’ll probably rebid 2N to see what I do. After 2N, I’ll bid 3D and pull 3N to 4D, implying 6=5 (with 5=5 and partner bidding notrump twice, I’d never pull 3N).

If he rebids 3C, I bid 3D and he can own up to a doubleton spade should he have one. Note that after 1S 2H 3D, his first duties are to rebid long hearts or bid notrump with club cards. Giving a preference on xx or even Ax takes a back seat.


I think 4S the most likely good game (if we have one and assuming partner isn’t so strong that we have several winning options) and mps is about frequency of results, not size of results.

Thus I want, initially, to aim for spades, bringing diamonds into it only if convenient (I’d pull after 1S 2H 2S 3N….I bid 4D, again implying 6=5 with moderate values).

If 2H is not gf, I think the argument for 2S is even stronger, since partner may have his own moderate 2-suiter and I don’t want to force to game via 3D.

Btw, great hand to post. Lots of things to think about, and at the table I’d be weighing a lot of factors I am not describing here, since I think this is a tough hand.

[AL78]

I think the system being played here was Acol so the 2♥ response is not game forcing.

[DavidKok]

Sorry, I jumped the gun and assumed 2♥ was forcing to game. I don't know enough about Acol to decide.

In a 2/1 system at IMPs I'd like to add that I'm not passing 1♠-2♥; 3♦-3NT. Instead I will rebid 4♦. So partner's priorities over 3♦ are not immediately decisive.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2023-August-11, 10:25, said:

I think the system being played here was Acol so the 2♥ response is not game forcing.

Does 2H promise another bid? I seem to recall that, at least at some point in history, a 2S rebid by opener could be passed (probably the single greatest reason I never seriously tried Acol….having opener distort his hand out of fear that 2S might be passed struck me as fundamentally unplayable at a serious level….and likely historically ‘solved’ in some instances by tone of voice and/or breaks in tempo (as, to be fair, was rampant in standard American partnerships back in the day).

Even with assumptions about that, I might still bid a non-forcing 2S. The odds are good that responder has a strong hand and won’t pass and, if he does, it’s possible that we’re in the best mp spot. Picture Jx KQxxxx xx Axx. Make the hearts KQJxxx if that example is too weak, but I think it’s a normal Acol 2H (based on my very limited knowledge)

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2023-August-11, 12:28, said:

Does 2H promise another bid? I seem to recall that, at least at some point in history, a 2S rebid by opener could be passed (probably the single greatest reason I never seriously tried Acol….having opener distort his hand out of fear that 2S might be passed struck me as fundamentally unplayable at a serious level….and likely historically ‘solved’ in some instances by tone of voice and/or breaks in tempo (as, to be fair, was rampant in standard American partnerships back in the day).

Even with assumptions about that, I might still bid a non-forcing 2S. The odds are good that responder has a strong hand and won’t pass and, if he does, it’s possible that we’re in the best mp spot. Picture Jx KQxxxx xx Axx. Make the hearts KQJxxx if that example is too weak, but I think it’s a normal Acol 2H (based on my very limited knowledge)

In the strictest sense no but responder will always find another bid unless they strained to make a 2/1 response on a stonking minimum (in which case they probably should have responded 1NT).

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-August-11, 12:28, said:

Does 2H promise another bid? I seem to recall that, at least at some point in history, a 2S rebid by opener could be passed (probably the single greatest reason I never seriously tried Acol….having opener distort his hand out of fear that 2S might be passed struck me as fundamentally unplayable at a serious level….and likely historically ‘solved’ in some instances by tone of voice and/or breaks in tempo (as, to be fair, was rampant in standard American partnerships back in the day).

Even with assumptions about that, I might still bid a non-forcing 2S. The odds are good that responder has a strong hand and won’t pass and, if he does, it’s possible that we’re in the best mp spot. Picture Jx KQxxxx xx Axx. Make the hearts KQJxxx if that example is too weak, but I think it’s a normal Acol 2H (based on my very limited knowledge)

Your hand is a decent minimum for 2♥. And no responder does not promise a rebid, 3♦ is very much GF and an overbid here. 2♠ is pretty much forced with this hand in Acol.

The only caveat which doesn't apply when the opening bid is 1♠ is that you don't pass opener's rebid leaving the chance of missing a 4-4 major fit so if you have 4♠/5+m you respond 1♠ unless you're prepared to bid 2♠ over 1♥-2m-2♥.

[P_Marlowe]

2S, you have a min hand, quite likely a missfit, try to put on the brakes.


With kind regards
Marlowe

[AL78]

This hand was held by one of my regular partner's on which she and her partner bid to a making grand slam and I enquired as to how they found it:

---

North had been very polite by not jump overcalling on ♠93 ♥J ♦T75 ♣KJT7542 but I felt her 3♠ bid was over the top and she should have bid 3♦ if she liked her hand that much (I would have bid 2♠). That was an absolute top for them as no-one else got past game. The full traveller:

4♠W 13 -710
7♠W 13 -2210
4♠W 12 -680
5♣N 8 -150
5♠W 13 -710

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2023-August-11, 14:45, said:

This hand was held by one of my regular partner's on which she and her partner bid to a making grand slam and I enquired as to how they found it:

---

North had been very polite by not jump overcalling on ♠93 ♥J ♦T75 ♣KJT7542 but I felt her 3♠ bid was over the top and she should have bid 3♦ if she liked her hand that much (I would have bid 2♠). That was an absolute top for them as no-one else got past game. The full traveller:

4♠W 13 -710
7♠W 13 -2210
4♠W 12 -680
5♣N 8 -150
5♠W 13 -710

Both players bid extremely badly. How on earth did east know that they could make grand opposite 2 keycards and the trump queen? (a) exactly when did opener show he held the diamond ace rather than the club ace, and (b) when did he show the club void

This is so egregious that, had this been an online game, the auction would have sounded loud alarm bells….it’s very reminiscent of some of the hands on which quite a few ACBL pairs were convicted of cheating. I’m not, at all, implying these people cheated…appallingly bad bridge that scores a great result isn’t proof of anything other than that appallingly poor bridge can occasionally lead to a wonderful outcome….nobody should be accused, let alone convicted, on even three or four such results: only if and when the record of hundreds of hands shows that they were always ‘lucky’ with their silly bids and never got the bad results that such bids should attract over time. I only mention it to show just how silly I find that auction.

[pescetom]

After 3♠, a 4♦ control-bid rather than an agricultural 4NT would have eliminated the huge risk of West with the wrong minor Ace.

[Edit: just read comment of mikeh about the risk of this bidding looking suspect at a higher level, fully agree]

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2023-August-11, 15:15, said:

Both players bid extremely badly. How on earth did east know that they could make grand opposite 2 keycards and the trump queen? (a) exactly when did opener show he held the diamond ace rather than the club ace, and (b) when did he show the club void

This is so egregious that, had this been an online game, the auction would have sounded loud alarm bells….it’s very reminiscent of some of the hands on which quite a few ACBL pairs were convicted of cheating. I’m not, at all, implying these people cheated…appallingly bad bridge that scores a great result isn’t proof of anything other than that appallingly poor bridge can occasionally lead to a wonderful outcome….nobody should be accused, let alone convicted, on even three or four such results: only if and when the record of hundreds of hands shows that they were always ‘lucky’ with their silly bids and never got the bad results that such bids should attract over time. I only mention it to show just how silly I find that auction.

I agree, and I apologise if I am coming across as a windup merchant posting hands like this, but I was trying to find out how others would have bid the West hand and after I got a few responses I thought I'd show what happened at the table. I can assure you that no-one was cheating, this was a F2F club game and no-one other than those who have access to the club building could ever look at the hands in advance of a session. I only noticed the poorness of the 4NT and beyond bidding by West after I posted the deal, and when I looked at it again I couldn't understand why anyone would take a reckless gamble on a grand slam in a field where a making small slam would get a good score. This sort of thing is why I am looking to retreat from bridge in the coming months and find something more rewarding to do in the evenings, since I am increasingly finding bridge sessions a three hour slog rather than an enjoyable challenge.

[akwoo]

I think I'm worth a 5C bid after 1S-2H-2S-4S (assuming 3S there wouldn't be forcing). The West hand grows up a ridiculous amount with a fit.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-August-11, 15:15, said:

Both players bid extremely badly. How on earth did east know that they could make grand opposite 2 keycards and the trump queen? (a) exactly when did opener show he held the diamond ace rather than the club ace, and (b) when did he show the club void

This is so egregious that, had this been an online game, the auction would have sounded loud alarm bells….it’s very reminiscent of some of the hands on which quite a few ACBL pairs were convicted of cheating. I’m not, at all, implying these people cheated…appallingly bad bridge that scores a great result isn’t proof of anything other than that appallingly poor bridge can occasionally lead to a wonderful outcome….nobody should be accused, let alone convicted, on even three or four such results: only if and when the record of hundreds of hands shows that they were always ‘lucky’ with their silly bids and never got the bad results that such bids should attract over time. I only mention it to show just how silly I find that auction.

Are we sure the auction is correct, if the 5♠ bid was actually 6♣ (2+Q+♣void) the auction would be fine.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-August-12, 02:11, said:

Are we sure the auction is correct, if the 5♠ bid was actually 6♣ (2+Q+♣void) the auction would be fine.

My friend e-mailed me the auction so it is correct as far as I know unless she has mis-remembered.

[Gilithin]

After a 1♠ opening, the only possible rebid in most systems is 2♠. Personally I would have preferred a 2♠ opening and this is the rare hand type that is willing to bid again if opponents come in. Ironically, after West shows a maximum Weak 2 with ♠KQ, you can get an auction that bids to slam more safely than the original pair.