[straube]

It's an interesting problem. I'd be interested in seeing what Adam has to say. Maybe a group effort.

David, how are you opening 22(54)? 1D/1N or 2m?

[foobar]

 straube, on 2024-January-29, 12:14, said:

It's an interesting problem. I'd be interested in seeing what Adam has to say. Maybe a group effort.

David, how are you opening 22(54)? 1D/1N or 2m?

We can assume that 5422 goes into 1D/1N.

[nullve]

According to the document,

P = 'Uncomfortable 11-12p could be passed, i.e. a (4441), 5m4m(xx) or 5m5m(21).'
1♦ = 'a) Unbal hand w/ a 4*M and a 5+m, 11-15p b) (4441), 12-15(16)p c) NT-hand w/ strength complementary to 1NT Ob NV vs V 13-15p else 11-13p'
1NT = 'Bal hand or 5m4om22 (optional). No zz-requirements. Even more unbal distributions, such as 6m(322) or even (4441)/5m(431) with singleton H
may be opened w/ 1NT, but these distributions can not be shown during the auction. NV vs V 10-12p else 14-16p'
2m = '11-15, 5-10 zz, 5+ suit unbal w/o 4+M. If only 5*suit then 12-15p (6-10 zz) and 4* in om. Never 55 in minors, then you open w/ 2NT.'
2NT = '12-15, 55 in minors, No zz requirements'

[straube]

Eliminating 22(54) means we'll have either a (31)54 or an anchor suit (6+ in diamonds). If we have a GI+ asking bid, we need to reserve the first rebids for minimums and potential misfits.

Something like...

2D-
.....2H-asking
..........2S-single-suited diamonds
...............2N-GF asking
....................3C-bal
....................3D-1363
....................3H-3163
....................3S-3361
...............etc-GI natural, nf
..........2N-(31)-5-4, min, nf
...............3m-to play
...............3H-ask
....................3S-1354
....................3N-3154
..........3C-6D/4C, min
...............3D-to play
..........3D-6D/4C, max
..........3H-1354, max
..........3S-3154, max
.....2S-5S, GI+ but part score rebids are nf
.....2N-5H, GI
.....3C-constructive raise
.....3D-weak raise
.....3M-GF, 6M

[foobar]

 straube, on 2024-January-29, 20:14, said:

Eliminating 22(54) means we'll have either a (31)54 or an anchor suit (6+ in diamonds). If we have a GI+ asking bid, we need to reserve the first rebids for minimums and potential misfits.

Something like...

2D-
.....2H-asking
..........2S-single-suited diamonds
...............2N-GF asking
....................3C-bal
....................3D-1363
....................3H-3163
....................3S-3361
...............etc-GI natural, nf
..........2N-(31)-5-4, min, nf
...............3m-to play
...............3H-ask
....................3S-1354
....................3N-3154
..........3C-6D/4C, min
...............3D-to play
..........3D-6D/4C, max
..........3H-1354, max
..........3S-3154, max
.....2S-5S, GI+ but part score rebids are nf
.....2N-5H, GI
.....3C-constructive raise
.....3D-weak raise
.....3M-GF, 6M

This looks like a good starting point. Some questions:

1) Will 3C include say the 44(32) invite hands, and even the misfit invite hands?
2) Over 2S, guess 3H is forward going noise with no clear direction (no spade fit, worried about stoppers)?
3) 2N is NF, right?

A 2♣ version of this will presumably use 2N=♦, with 2M F1 (or maybe NF constructive)? DavidKok recommended transfers over that bid, but it seems odd to have a relay scheme for one opening and not another.

[foobar]

 nullve, on 2024-January-29, 19:08, said:

According to the document,

P = 'Uncomfortable 11-12p could be passed, i.e. a (4441), 5m4m(xx) or 5m5m(21).'
1♦ = 'a) Unbal hand w/ a 4*M and a 5+m, 11-15p b) (4441), 12-15(16)p c) NT-hand w/ strength complementary to 1NT Ob NV vs V 13-15p else 11-13p'
1NT = 'Bal hand or 5m4om22 (optional). No zz-requirements. Even more unbal distributions, such as 6m(322) or even (4441)/5m(431) with singleton H
may be opened w/ 1NT, but these distributions can not be shown during the auction. NV vs V 10-12p else 14-16p'
2m = '11-15, 5-10 zz, 5+ suit unbal w/o 4+M. If only 5*suit then 12-15p (6-10 zz) and 4* in om. Never 55 in minors, then you open w/ 2NT.'
2NT = '12-15, 55 in minors, No zz requirements'

Right, that's the original system. However, we are trying to see if we can improve on the defined (and seemingly sub-optimal) responses to 2♣/2♦. A side objective is potentially freeing up 2N (probably for 20/21 balanced) by dumping 55m into 2m.

[straube]

 foobar, on 2024-January-29, 22:22, said:

This looks like a good starting point. Some questions:

1) Will 3C include say the 44(32) invite hands, and even the misfit invite hands?
2) Over 2S, guess 3H is forward going noise with no clear direction (no spade fit, worried about stoppers)?
3) 2N is NF, right?

A 2♣ version of this will presumably use 2N=♦, with 2M F1 (or maybe NF constructive)? DavidKok recommended transfers over that bid, but it seems odd to have a relay scheme for one opening and not another.

1) I was thinking 3C would promise a 3-fit and maybe 9-11. If you don't have a fit or GI values it isn't safe to do anything.
2) Probably, yes. I haven't thought a lot about opener's rebids over 2S; I have thought about responder needing a way to show 5S/5H invitational.
3) NF, but I think opener would only pass with 3154 minimum.

[foobar]

 straube, on 2024-January-29, 23:04, said:

1) I was thinking 3C would promise a 3-fit and maybe 9-11. If you don't have a fit or GI values it isn't safe to do anything.
2) Probably, yes. I haven't thought a lot about opener's rebids over 2S; I have thought about responder needing a way to show 5S/5H invitational.
3) NF, but I think opener would only pass with 3154 minimum.

FWIW, IMPrecision uses 2♥ / 2♠ as 4+ F1, and 2N as invite with a fit and 3x as GF with 6+. Maybe it's possible to use 2♥ as 5+ F1 or GI+ ask (with the responses structured for the bailout)? It might be easier since we don't have to cater to 4-card vs. 3-card support for the major.

[straube]

 foobar, on 2024-January-29, 23:53, said:

FWIW, IMPrecision uses 2♥ / 2♠ as 4+ F1, and 2N as invite with a fit and 3x as GF with 6+. Maybe it's possible to use 2♥ as 5+ F1 or GI+ ask (with the responses structured for the bailout)? It might be easier since we don't have to cater to 4-card vs. 3-card support for the major.

If you do that, you need to have opener's rebids differentiate between fit and no-fit for hearts. If instead you use a rebid structure such as I put forward, responder's sign offs wouldn't "show" 5 hearts.

Not sure if it's obvious, but the intent I had was for GF wit 5-major to temporize with the 2D ask and then show the major. For example, 2D-2H, 3C-3S would be GF with 5S. Alternatively with 5 spades and a prepared rebid, one could go 2D-2S, 3D-3N (for example). Another example, 2D-2H, 2S-2N-3C,3H-showing 5 hearts (2N already established GF).

Sometimes, for example after learning of a specific (31)54, you can't easily set trump and just have to place the contract. Not great for slam bidding.

I grouped rebids so that responder can handle club hands. 2D-2H, 2S-3C=clubs inv. Opener's other rebids show clubs so we can get out in 4C sometimes.

Curious to see other ideas.

[DavidKok]

 straube, on 2024-January-29, 12:14, said:

It's an interesting problem. I'd be interested in seeing what Adam has to say. Maybe a group effort.

David, how are you opening 22(54)? 1D/1N or 2m?

I think there's merit in allowing judgement. If the hand feels suitable for playing in a trump suit (particularly, clubs) I'd open 2♣, while if I think it's suitable in notrumps I'd open 1♦ or 1NT depending on the strength. Keep in mind that if you open 1♦/1NT you'd be committed to concealing the minor suit length and have to show a balanced hand, which can be awkward. I expect 2♣ to be better most of the time, especially if we have a responsive structure where we can get out at 2M or 3♣ when it is right to do so, but I'm not sure.

 straube, on 2024-January-30, 04:56, said:

I grouped rebids so that responder can handle club hands. 2D-2H, 2S-3C=clubs inv. Opener's other rebids show clubs so we can get out in 4C sometimes.

Curious to see other ideas.

Thank you for the suggestion! For now I've only given it a brief read, I'll go over it in more detail later and try to come up with some suggestions of my own.

[awm]

It feels to me like you will need to be able to play in 2NT some of the time, which means you need 2♥ as a multi-way bid and not primarily as a relay. I might try something over 2♦ like:

2♥ = either 5+♠, or various invitational hands
2♠ = 5+♥ and invitational or better
2NT = game-forcing diamond raise
3♣ = natural and GF
3♦ = mostly preemptive raise
3♥, 3♠ = 6+ suit and GF

After 2♥, something like:
... 2♠ = 0-2♠ any strength (can be passed if responder is weak with 6+♠)
... 2NT = 3154 minimum, passable if responder has a non-fitting misfit
... 3♣ = 3154/3064 maximum
... 3♦ = 3♠-6♦ minimum, passable if responder has a non-fitting misfit
... 3♥, 3♠, 3NT = 3♠-6♦, maximum with high/low/no shortage

After 2♦-2♥-2♠:
... 2NT = invitational without a known fit (can be corrected to 3♦ with six good ones)
... 3♣ = GF with 5♠/4+♣
... 3♦ = invitational with diamond fit (may or may not have five spades)
... 3♥ = GF with 5♠/5♥
... 3♠ = INV with 6+♠
... 3NT = to play, presumably 5♠
... 4♣, 4♥ = splinter with 5+♠, 3+♦
... 4♦ = slam try with 5+♠, 3+♦, no shortness

[DavidKok]

I like this idea a lot. In no particular order:

• Using 2♥ as an artificial bid to help sort out whether or not we want to apply the breaks in 2♠ or not seems good to me. Sacrificing a halt in place with 2♥ NF is almost certainly a good idea, and if we're accepting that hearts hands are going to 3♥ at least anyway we can try to recover the spades at least.
  
• Using 2♠ as the hearts hands potentially lets us stop in 2NT with a misfit without introducing a NF bid, so it can still function as a way to start a GF auction with long hearts.

There's some other aspects that I'm not so sure of, but I also don't have immediate alternatives lined up. Thinking out loud, my thoughts are:

• We may not particularly wish to stop in 2NT when responder has hearts. If we do not, we could perhaps use 2NT or even higher for the hearts hands.
  
• The jump bids are 6(+) and GF right now, why not start with a transfer and rebid the suit?
  
• If we have a GF hand with diamonds we might well want to conceal them and bid 3NT, or decide that we're going to 5♦ at least anyway in which case we have lots of space. I think it's fine to move these hands up a bit.
  
• With a weak hand with long spades I think passing is often sort of OK? Opener is limited, we might catch a misfit, and it's a rare hand type to begin with. Possibly the responses to 2♦-2♥ can be more forward-going, splitting the spades 0-2 versus 3 means opener will almost always complete the transfer instead of share useful information, and I'm not sure we want that. In particular, if the 2♥ bid is always invitational(+) we might be able to also break the transfer with a maximum despite the spades misfit.
  
• It might be good to have a way to get to 3♣ when opener has both minors.
  
• Trying to put this all together, it might be somewhat reasonable to sacrifice the ability to play 2NT on certain sequences or misfitting hand types. The 2♦ opening is somewhat clunky and maybe blast-or-pass with the no-5cM no-fit hands is OK(?).

I'll try to come up with my own version as a point of comparison, my initial attempts are starting to look very similar to using 2♥ as a generic relay, which I was hoping to avoid. I think making 2♥ inv(+) always, may or may not have spades, permits very expressive rebids and can take strain off of the rest of the system and reduce the number of other not-GF bids we need.

[awm]

* I wanted to have a way to invite with a long major and a way to look for slam with a long major. These both seem like fairly common hand types. My thought was that 2!h...3!s and 2!s...3!h would be invitational and jumping to 3M would be slam interest, although obviously you could flip these.
* My thought with 2!d-2NT was to have opener show shortness. This seems like useful information and lets us play 3NT if responder is loaded opposite the short suit (and get to some light slams if responder has nothing opposite the short suit). Of course I agree that some hands are blasting 3NT, but having a shortness ask below 3NT seemed very valuable.
* It wasn't clear to me whether opener can have 5/5 minors or only 5/4. In any case, it seems hard to get to 3♣ consistently when it's right without playing a lot of 4-3 and 5-2 fits.

[DavidKok]

Here's a new attempt, not polished but maybe worth trying out. I've been attempting to split responder's hand types into the following sets:

• Weak - just pass. It's a shame, but I don't want to try to correct the partscore when the auction is already cramped.
  
• Invitational - several hand types:
  • 5cM: introduce the major (with an artificial bid) and hear about the degree of fit. Retreat to some playable contract if necessary, the transfer scheme needs to cater to this possibility.
    
  • 3(+)♦ no 5cM: make an invitational raise to 3♦, probably through some artificial route.
    
  • Primary clubs: 6(+)♣ or some specific hands with 5, i.e. (43)15 and 4405. These are a real problem - we don't have safety in 3♣ or 3♦, but we might have a big club fit on. I'm leaving this as a problem for now.
    
  • The remainder, 'almost balanced': 4423, 4414, (43)24, 3325, (42)25. The last three hand types have safety in 3m, though we have to find the right one. The second hand type is a prime candidate for blast-or-pass. 4423 is a problem hand and might have to blast-or-pass as well.
• Game forcing:
  • COG 4M versus 3NT - probably go through the transfer, and if that didn't answer the question bid again.
    
  • COG 5m versus 3NT - probably use a cheap asking bid to get more shape information and hope to take it from there.
    
  • SI in a major: start with the transfer, then bid on using a GF route to get more information.
    
  • SI in a minor suit: start with asking more information, then set a minor trump suit if one is available or bid quantitatively if not.

Based on this I think I'd like the following as a base:
2♥: artificial asking bid, contains 5(+) spades, SI in a minor suit, invitational in diamonds and invitational with the (43)24, 3325 and (42)25 hand types ('no 5cM, at least 2=4 in the minors'). Might accidentally be able to handle certain minor-oriented COG hands as well.

• 2♠: Min, exactly 2 spades (maybe overload this with some suitable hands with a singleton).
  • Pass: 5(+)♠ and believes this is likely the best spot.
    
  • 2NT: ???
    
  • 3♣: Offer to play, pass with 4(+)♣, pull to 3♦ with fewer.
    
  • 3♦: To play (opener has shown a minimum), may or may not have spades.
    
  • 3♥: 5♠5♥ or longer, GF.
    
  • 3♠: 6(+)♠, SI. Sets trumps.
    
  • 3NT: To play.
• 2NT: 3 spades, wide ranging.
  • 3♣: Offer to play, pass with 4(+)♣ min, pull to 3♦ with fewer, bid more with a maximum.
    
  • 3♦: Invitational NF, denies five spades.
    
  • 3♥: ??? (generic slam try setting spades, perhaps?)
    
  • 3♠: Minimum NF, 5(+) spades.
• 3♣: 0-1 spades, 4(+)♣, min.
  • Pass: minimum, to play.
    
  • 3♦: To play, may or may not have spades.
    
  • 3♥: 5♠5♥ or longer, GF.
    
  • 3♠: ???
    
  • 3NT: To play.
• 3♦: 0-1 spades, 6(+)♦, 3(-)♣, min.
  • Pass: To play, may or may not have spades.
    
  • 3♥: 5♠5♥ or longer, GF.
    
  • 3♠: ???
    
  • 3NT: To play.
• 3♥: 0-2 spades, 4(+)♣, max.
  • 3♠: 6(+)♠
    
  • 3NT: To play.
    
  • 4♣: SI, sets trumps.
    
  • 4♦: SI, sets trumps.
    
  • 4♥: ???
    
  • 4♠: To play.
    
  • 4NT: Quantitative?
• 3♠: 2 spades, 6(+)♦, 3(-)♣, max.
  
• 3NT: 0-1 spades, 6(+)♦, max.

I haven't given the higher bids much thought yet, but I think this can cover all the spades hands as well as a lot of the invitational hands. I'm not sure there's a better solution than blast-or-pass for the 4414, (43)15 and 4405 hands anyway since they don't have a safety level. This way the immediate responses of 2♠ and up can focus on unbalanced hands with primary hearts or clubs, or possibly some specific competitive, COG or slam try hands.

[straube]

I like awm's structure better than yours because after your 2-way 2H bid, his often gets you to 2N, reserving higher responses for hands with 3S or maximums while yours does somewhat the opposite.

All three structures are a bit on the complicated side if our design goal is a system that beginners would play.

[DavidKok]

That's the other thread, for beginners. I'm not looking to change anything from 2M NF invitational there.

I personally think that getting to 2N often is bad, not good. With 7(+) spades stopping in 2♠ is likely better, while with an 8cm I think 3m is to be prefered. The number of hands that slip through the cracks is quite slim. But if you want to recover this, maybe

• 2♠: Inv(+) 5(+)♥.
  
• 2NT: NF Inv, approximately 4415 minus a card though you may wish to include other hand types that prefer 2NT to 3♦.
  
• 3♣: GF (5)6(+)♣.
  
• 3♦: Competitive raise.

[nullve]

 awm, on 2024-January-30, 08:42, said:

It feels to me like you will need to be able to play in 2NT some of the time

[...]

After 2♥, something like:
... 2♠ = 0-2♠ any strength (can be passed if responder is weak with 6+♠)
... 2NT = 3154 minimum, passable if responder has a non-fitting misfit
... 3♣ = 3154/3064 maximum
... 3♦ = 3♠-6♦ minimum, passable if responder has a non-fitting misfit
... 3♥, 3♠, 3NT = 3♠-6♦, maximum with high/low/no shortage

After 2♦-2♥-2♠:
... 2NT = invitational without a known fit (can be corrected to 3♦ with six good ones)
... 3♣ = GF with 5♠/4+♣
... 3♦ = invitational with diamond fit (may or may not have five spades)
... 3♥ = GF with 5♠/5♥
... 3♠ = INV with 6+♠
... 3NT = to play, presumably 5♠
... 4♣, 4♥ = splinter with 5+♠, 3+♦
... 4♦ = slam try with 5+♠, 3+♦, no shortness

Which might be why the (true) AEC 2♦ opening range with xx54 is 12-15, not e.g. 11-15 or 10-15.

[awm]

Maybe this is a bit better:

2♥ = 5+♠ or various invitational hands
2♠ = 5+♥, less than five spades
2NT = GF diamond raise
3♣ = natural, GF
3♦ = mostly preemptive raise
3♥ = GF 5+♠ and 5+♥
3♠ = GF 5+♠ and 5+♣
3NT = to play
4M = to play

2♦-2♥:
... 2♠ = 0-2♠
...... 2NT = INV, less than 4♣, less than 3♦, less than 5♥, not always 5♠
...... 3♣ = 4+♣ and INV, may not have spades, minimum opener passes or corrects to 3♦
...... 3♦ = 3+♦ and INV, may not have spades
...... 3♥ = 5+♠/5+♥ and INV
...... 3♠ = long spades and INV
...... 3NT = to play, presumably had 5♠
...... 4♣, 4♥ = splinter with long spades and slam interest
...... 4♠ = mild slam try (could've bid 4♠ directly over 2♦)
...... 4♦ = sets diamonds and slam interest, presumably had 5♠ and 3+♦
... 2NT = 3154 minimum
...... 3♣, 3♦ = to play
...... 3♥ = transfer to spades
...... 3♠ = to play
... 3♣ = 3154 maximum (GF)
...... 3♦ = sets diamonds
...... 3♥ = transfer to spades
...... 3♠ = sets spades, ask for cuebids
...... 3NT = to play
...... 4♣, 4♦ = slam interest in the bid suit
...... 4♠ = to play
... 3♦ = 3♠, 6+♦, minimum
...... 3♥ = relay for shortness, agrees spades
...... 3♠ = to play
... 3♥, 3♠, 3NT = 3♠, 6+♦, max, high/low/no shortage
...... 3NT = to play
...... 4♦ = sets diamonds, likely a non-spade hand where the shortness makes 3NT unplayable
...... else = sets spades

2♦-2♠:
... 2NT = 5♦+4♣ and less than 3♥; minimum
...... Pass, 3♣, 3♦, 3♥, 3NT to play
...... 3♠ = slam interest in hearts
...... 4♣, 4♦ = slam interest in bid suit
...... 4♥ = to play, could've had slam interest opposite a fit
... 3♣ = 6+♦ and less than 3♥; maximum
...... 3♦ = relay for shortness
...... 3♥ = slam interest in hearts
...... 3♠ = 5+♣ and GF
... 3♦ = 6+♦ and less than 3♥; minimum
...... Pass, 3♥, 3NT, 4♥ = to play
...... 3♠ = 5+♣ and GF
...... 4♣ = slam interest in hearts
...... 4♦ = slam interest in diamonds
... 3♥ = 3♥, minimum (hearts now agreed)
... 3♠ = 5♦+4♣ and less than 3♥, maximum
...... 4m = slam try in the bid suit
...... 3NT, 4♥ = to play
...... 4♠ = slam try in hearts despite the non-fit
... 3NT, 4♣ = 3♥ and short spades/clubs respectively, maximum

[straube]

It's very good. I like how you keep which suits are in focus so you can transition into slam exploration. I personally wouldn't want to memorize something that complicated. I would rethink my opening bid or settle for a response structure that is easier to remember. Still, it's impressive and hats off to you.

[foobar]

 awm, on 2024-January-31, 11:42, said:

Maybe this is a bit better:

2♥ = 5+♠ or various invitational hands
2♠ = 5+♥, less than five spades
2NT = GF diamond raise
3♣ = natural, GF
3♦ = mostly preemptive raise
3♥ = GF 5+♠ and 5+♥
3♠ = GF 5+♠ and 5+♣
3NT = to play
4M = to play

Looks very nice and comprehensive from an initial glance.