[CMOTDib]

sanst, on 2023-June-12, 01:51, said:

Besides, usually somebody draws attention to an irregularity - and all forget to call the TD .

Absolutely spot on. "Cats and Herding" again

[blackshoe]

7B2 says "each player counts his cards." When the laws say a player "does" something, there is no suggestion that a violation be penalized. Either he failed to count them, or he counted them and got the wrong answer. Oops. But there's no suggestion he should get a PP, and no rectification specified in this law when he doesn't count or gets the wrong answer. Oh, there's another possibility: he took the hand out of the board, counted his cards, correctly got 13, and then at some point laid the hand down on the ♠A from the previous board that he didn't put back in its proper board. Interestingly, I don't see a law that tells us when or how cards should be put back in the board. Maybe I missed it.

[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2023-June-12, 15:35, said:

Interestingly, I don't see a law that tells us when or how cards should be put back in the board. Maybe I missed it.

IIRC the entire business of end of play is left up in the air - agreement of score, registration of score, replacement of quitted cards in the board, discussion (or not) about the board just played, etc. (except for 65D and 66D, but it is not explicit that the score must be registered and confirmed by other side before the cards are put away, or who should put which cards where checking what).

[PeterAlan]

blackshoe, on 2023-June-12, 15:35, said:

Interestingly, I don't see a law that tells us when or how cards should be put back in the board. Maybe I missed it.

Law 7C:

Law 7C said:

C. Returning Cards to Board
After play has finished, each player should shuffle his original thirteen cards, after which he restores them to the pocket corresponding to his compass position. Thereafter no hand shall be removed from the board unless a member of each side, or the Director, is present.

That seems to say pretty clearly that a player is expected to return all 13 of their cards to the board (and where and when).

[blackshoe]

I must be getting senile. :-)

[axman]

PeterAlan, on 2023-June-13, 16:35, said:

Law 7C:

That seems to say pretty clearly that a player is expected to return all 13 of their cards to the board (and where and when).

Law 7C said:
C. Returning Cards to Board
After play has finished, each player should shuffle his original thirteen cards, after which he restores them to the pocket corresponding to his compass position. Thereafter no hand shall be removed from the board unless a member of each side, or the Director, is present.

Does it require the cards to be face down:)

[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2023-June-13, 17:55, said:

I must be getting senile. :-)

And I must still learn not to assume the order of laws follows the sequence of play when possible

I still stand by my point about registering the number of tricks taken and confirmation by opponents.
I could cheerfully live with "after which no change is possible" too.

[sanst]

Our regional TD could become very angry when you put the boards in a stack on the table. It occurred more than once that someone pushed his played hand back in the board, but one of the cards was put in the board underneath it. Or somebody pulled his cards out of the board but also took a card from the lower board. Although the backsides of the cards were different from board to board, none of the other players seem to have noticed the difference. And counting is very difficult, certainly in this country where 'rithmetic has gone down the drains for many years - yes, I know, it’s the complaint of an old man, but it’s backed up by research.

[pescetom]

I don't get very angry but I do give them a reprimand: handling the boards in a stack on the table is a great aid to mistakes of all kinds.

I wouldn't say counting is difficult, but just like our dealing machine I do occasionally miscount thirteen cards as twelve or (more likely) fourteen: I've learned to just recount (and wake up) rather than call the Director too soon.

[mycroft]

I have definitely seen 12 cards go back in the board (because one gets stuck on the table lip, or the cover, or...); then count 13 cards onto the table, pick up 14, play. Or count 13 cards, bid, put them down to write in the contract, pick up 14...

But we're going far from the initial issue (which isn't really a big deal, frankly, thread drift is a thing™). No, it's not a guarantee that the person raising the problem has the card. Yes, I'd take the two-way finesse for the doubled queen (I know in OP it's the Ace) through the noticer-of-14-card-dummy. Yes, this is a problem that isn't obviously covered in the Laws. Maybe it should be.

We always have multiple boards in stack on the table. It's impossible (okay, very difficult and painful) for my partner to get her cards out without that. I haven't run in to a "cards in wrong board" issue from it - but I have definitely run into the "WTH is board 5?" issue when they only want one on the table and the other 5 are on the floor in 4 corners (I guess they ran out of new places to put the fifth board?)

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2023-June-19, 10:52, said:

We always have multiple boards in stack on the table. It's impossible (okay, very difficult and painful) for my partner to get her cards out without that.

Not sure I understand. You are talking about a physical disability that is mitigated by having the board 1+ level higher? Couldn't you just raise it up for her or pass her her cards?

mycroft, on 2023-June-19, 10:52, said:

I haven't run in to a "cards in wrong board" issue from it - but I have definitely run into the "WTH is board 5?" issue when they only want one on the table and the other 5 are on the floor in 4 corners (I guess they ran out of new places to put the fifth board?)

YMOV.
I have frequently run into all sorts of nonsense from stacking during play, including (but not limited to) boards played out of order, boards played twice, cards taken from or inserted in wrong board.
Whereas I have never run into any issue whatsoever when they (I) want only one on the table, except tbat at some pre-covid venues there was no obvious space on the small table/a side table/a spare chair to place the other boards (I put them under my bidding box lacking any better space, if responsible for the table. Italians are fussy about hygiene and would not accept the floor).

[mycroft]

Yes. No. I could pass her her cards every hand, but having the bottom of the cards slightly - but solidly - in the air means I don't have to.

Note: from experience last night (we were in the share), it's okay with the fliptop boards as they're thick enough plastic (and loose enough) that there's room to get under without causing pain. Or she may have been on a good night last night. But the metal ones don't work without a raised base that she can get under.

And again, while I absolutely believe you, I've never seen multiple boards on the table cause any card-migration. Having South flip the boards and take their cards, and then North flip the boards and take *their* cards - yeah, 100% seen it. And yeah, serious problem. And having one player with all the boards to their side would mitigate almost all of that (their *HO might replace the boards though, and then...)

Oh for a game/tournament where the boards don't end up on the floor, no matter how many side-tables there are...especially KOs or 8-board Swisses.