[Dinarius]

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From a MPs game.

In a strong room, only two E/W pairs (we weren't one of them!) bid slam. One 6♣ by East, and one 6NT by West. All E/W were playing five card majors and short club or better minor. None was playing four card suits.

If West now doubles, East will bid 1♠. But, while East has the perfect hand for West, from West's point of view, playing 5 card/short club, East's 1♠ rebid could just as easily be 4333, or 4324, for example, when slam might not make.

How do you bid slam?

D.

[DavidKok]

I'd start with 2♥, rather than double. Some people have 1♠ available to show this hand type. I am not sure we would get to slam, and it is very difficult to be objective having seen all the hands. South missed a good opportunity to bid 2♥.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would start with X, followed by 2H, which should cancel the meaning of X (4spades).
Opener will bid 3C, and 3NT will end the auction, and it will be 3NT+3, after the heart
attack. Next board.

We play, that X denies 4 spades, but this wont help here a lot, you still play MP.

Even without the intervention getting to 6C in a convincing manner will be hard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-29, 11:28, said:

I'd start with 2♥, rather than double. Some people have 1♠ available to show this hand type. I am not sure we would get to slam, and it is very difficult to be objective having seen all the hands. South missed a good opportunity to bid 2♥.

I would agree, but since we have a still inverted 2♣ available opposite our 4+ card club, this is specifically a 3 card club raise.

[pescetom]

I agree with 2H, although the only partner I am sure would bid it has unfortunately for me decided to privilege his career in medicine over bridge. If he did so I'm confident we stop in 6C even without peeking.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2023-June-29, 13:32, said:

I agree with 2H, although the only partner I am sure would bid it has unfortunately for me decided to privilege his career in medicine over bridge. If he did so I'm confident we stop in 6C even without peeking.

I think W should bid 6N, hearts could easily be 6-1.

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-June-29, 11:35, said:

Hi,

I would start with X, followed by 2H, which should cancel the meaning of X (4spades).
Opener will bid 3C, and 3NT will end the auction, and it will be 3NT+3, after the heart
attack. Next board.

We play, that X denies 4 spades, but this wont help here a lot, you still play MP.

Even without the intervention getting to 6C in a convincing manner will be hard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If double shows 4 spades (or 4-5), bidding 2H over opener’s 1S does NOT cancel the meaning of the negative double! It merely establishes a game force and usually implies somevslam interest….in spades!

As for how to reach slam, methods matter.

Most players, who use x to show precisely 4 spades, will have a terrible time with this.

I prefer to use x for 4-5 spades, 2H for 6+ spades and 1S for both minors, especially since I prefer to play that 1C shows 2+ and can have (much) longer diamonds if balanced, but that isn’t exactly mainstream.

In the context of the methods given, I think I’d bid 2D (though knowing east’s hand makes me want to bid 2H instead).

Over 2D, opener bids 2S, and west is back in nightmare territory. With only one stopper and no assurance of any source of tricks (give east 4=2=3=4, same hcp, and slam is a long way off.

I don’t think I would reach slam playing normal methods.

Over 2H, which is my choice when I know east has long clubs, we still have a problem. After 2S by opener, responder still can’t come close to counting enough tricks…once again, opener could be 4=2=3=4. The 2S bid is not to try to play in spades, but to allow west to bid notrump….looking at AKQx in spades, opener knows that west may well be worried about that suit (2H doesn’t promise a big hand).

Hats off to any pair that finds slam honestly….as in, not based on knowing what partner holds and reaching it with confidence. Frankly, I’d have real trouble accepting that many posters here could do that. As is so often the case, showing all the cards distorts the comments, at least imo.

Having said that, in my preferred methods, I bid 1S, opener bids 2C (no sense showing spades at this juncture given that responder hasn’t shown more than about a 6 count so far) and now responder knows opener has real clubs. 2H gets the gf established, and over 2S by opener, responder bids 3C. Slam is now possible but not assured.

Big club players would have a far easier time, since east starts with 2C.

[Cyberyeti]

Referring to Mike's comment, weak NT players have it a little easier as if opener is 4234 he has 15+ or would have opened 1N and can bid 2N GF over 2♥, ergo he has real clubs even without the inference that that hand will be opened 1♠ by some old style Acol, players.

I would expect for us:

1♣(4+)-(1♥)-2♥(exactly 3 clubs 10+, no other sensible bid)
2♠-

And now there are several options and I don't think I can really speculate what would happen having seen both hands, one pretty simple possibility:

... 4♣
4♠(4♦ would be kickback)-5♦(partner having bypassed hearts, shows controls in both reds)
5♠-

and now can either just bid 6♣ or 6N or use a "tell me more" 5N which will get to 6N via 6♠, the latter is quite likely as he knows partner has 2 hearts from the 4♠ bid, so can see the risk of the ruff, Q♦ wil do just as well as Q♠.

[mw64ahw]

West's hand passes the initial smell test for a slam:
1♣-(1♥)-1♠ GI
2♣ 5+♣3+M or 5+♣4♦
Now I either have the choice of blasting to 4♦ expecting to end in at least 5♣ or taking a transfer based approach. Assuming the later
2♦ 4+♥ +stopper)-2♠ 5224/4xx6+/4315
3♦ GF denies 4♠-3♠ 64xx versus 3♥ 4225 & 3NT 4315
4♦ SI 2KCs-4♠ 2KCs+K♠
4NT K♦-5♣ missing Q♣
5♥ 6♣/NT-5♠ Q♠
6NT counting the tricks
Perhaps a touch tricky for my main partner (more likely to blast!), but the simulator gets there

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2023-June-30, 01:11, said:

West's hand passes the initial smell test for a slam:
1♣-1♠ GI
2♣ 5+♣3+M or 2245 GF
Now I either have the choice of blasting to 4♦ expecting to end in at least 5♣ or taking a transfer based approach. Assuming the later
2♦ 4+♥ +stopper)-2♠ 5224/4xx6+/4315
3♦ GF denies 4♠-3♠ 64xx versus 3♥ 4225
4♦ SI 2KCs-4♠ 2KCs +K♠
4NT K♦-5♣ missing Q♣
5♥ 6♣/NT-5♠ Q♠
6NT counting the tricks
Perhaps a touch tricky for my main partner (more likely to blast!), but the simulator gets there

You haven't put the overcall in, does 1♠ really mean that over the overcall ?

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-30, 01:16, said:

You haven't put the overcall in, does 1♠ really mean that over the overcall ?

Added now, but yes the meaning stays the same; X is 4+♠ Weak so opener can still complete the transfer with a Weak NT strength hand

[Gilithin]

I have played a number of different methods for this auction. With my first bridge partner, we played that 1♠ was natural and X showed the equivalent of a 1♦ response, which might sound weird but we actually did very well with it. This hand is a poster child for the method with the West hand being an easy X. The standard method for club level is for X to show precisely 4 spades. I have read enough expert panels in magazines to know that the majority bid 2♦ with this hand when they cannot see partner's. This ends up being something of a system hole (which is why the hand turns up so often in expert panel columns) so reaching the slam convincingly in a SD auction is likely to be an uphill task. Finally, the modern expert trend is to play transfers here, with X showing 4+ spades and 1♠ denying them. There are a number of different schemes out there, with arguably the simplest being that 1♠ shows either diamonds or a NT hand without an adequate stopper. This system responds 1♠, whereupon Opener will show their real clubs and the rest is relatively simple.
All this really goes to show is that if you create a system hole by playing a conventional scheme, you will have a tough time when the bad hand type turns up. Your expectation is that you will do well enough on the rest of the hands to show an overall profit. If you cannot stand the occasional poor score, you probably shouldn't be playing the convention. The great thing about playing "Standard" is that our bad hands are also their bad hands, so we don't get punished too much for them. So people feel safe, even if the overall scheme is weaker than an alternative with a completely different set of good and bad hands.