[pigpenz]

playing imps nv vs nv
your hand is:

---

auction:
1♦ 1♥ 2♥ X
2NT p yourcall?

your partners profiles says he is expert

[pigpenz]

i would agree with JLall, you are either making overtricks at 3NT or going down. So at imps do we go for the gold ring or not

[awm]

Well I agree with Justin that you're unlikely to make exactly 8 tricks in notrump. But I doubt that 3NT is all that high percentage a shot. It seems pretty likely that 3♦ will make on this hand so I'll bid that and take the sure plus. The auction's still alive if partner wants to take a shot at 3NT (two heart stops and a top diamond honor would be about the hand for it)... the 3♦ pull just shows a hand with long diamonds that prefers to play the suit partial unless partner is sure he can run the suit in notrumps. It seems likely you will need two heart stops to make 3NT, and partner's advertised only one. A typical hand where 3NT is two down and 3♦ odds-on to make:

♠ Kxx
♥ Axx
♦ Kxxx
♣ Kxx

[whereagles]

Too many queens and jacks. This calls for a cautious 3♦ bid..

[mike777]

3nt, just bid the darn game....

[luke warm]

me too, 3nt

[Limey_p]

awm said it. You started with a bare limit raise and that's what you still have. Involve pard and complete the description of your hand. If 3N is right, pard can bid it.

[cherdano]

awm, on Jul 1 2005, 11:41 PM, said:

Well I agree with Justin that you're unlikely to make exactly 8 tricks in notrump. But I doubt that 3NT is all that high percentage a shot. It seems pretty likely that 3♦ will make on this hand so I'll bid that and take the sure plus. The auction's still alive if partner wants to take a shot at 3NT (two heart stops and a top diamond honor would be about the hand for it)... the 3♦ pull just shows a hand with long diamonds that prefers to play the suit partial unless partner is sure he can run the suit in notrumps. It seems likely you will need two heart stops to make 3NT, and partner's advertised only one. A typical hand where 3NT is two down and 3♦ odds-on to make:

♠ Kxx
♥ Axx
♦ Kxxx
♣ Kxx

Isn't this is a pass? If A32 is really all I need for game, I can ask for a stopper with 3♥; since heart is essentially a suit bid and raised by opps, a free bid of 2NT should in my view either show extras, or at least the chance for a double stop. In that case, ♥JT is excellent help, e.g. for A9x, K9x, A8xx etc.

Arend

[awm]

cherdano, on Jul 2 2005, 01:26 AM, said:

Isn't this is a pass? If A32 is really all I need for game, I can ask for a stopper with 3♥; since heart is essentially a suit bid and raised by opps, a free bid of 2NT should in my view either show extras, or at least the chance for a double stop. In that case, ♥JT is excellent help, e.g. for A9x, K9x, A8xx etc.

Arend

I don't think RHO's double substantially changes the meaning of a 2NT call. If you wouldn't bid 2NT here with a stopper, it puts a lot of pressure on partner especially if LHO ups the ante to 3♥. My assumption would be that a pass shows the "difficult" hand -- balanced with no stop, whereas with an easy 2NT bid (sans double) I would still bid 2NT. In fact if I pass and partner bids 3♥ "stopper ask" I would tend to think partner's looking for help or trying to right-side a contract and bid 3NT with something like Jxx or Qx.

It certainly seems like quite a position to take (with a pickup partner no less!) that 2NT shows a stopper and a half (something like A9x or A8xx) on an auction where one opponent has overcalled and the other has doubled for the lead.

[cherdano]

awm, on Jul 2 2005, 07:44 AM, said:

I don't think RHO's double substantially changes the meaning of a 2NT call. If you wouldn't bid 2NT here with a stopper, it puts a lot of pressure on partner especially if LHO ups the ante to 3♥. My assumption would be that a pass shows the "difficult" hand -- balanced with no stop, whereas with an easy 2NT bid (sans double) I would still bid 2NT. In fact if I pass and partner bids 3♥ "stopper ask" I would tend to think partner's looking for help or trying to right-side a contract and bid 3NT with something like Jxx or Qx.

It certainly seems like quite a position to take (with a pickup partner no less!) that 2NT shows a stopper and a half (something like A9x or A8xx) on an auction where one opponent has overcalled and the other has doubled for the lead.

One more comment: If either side has a non-positional stopper like A32, he can just XX to show a stopper. This is why 2NT should be a positional stopper at the very least IMO. (And why 3♥ should ask for a stopper and not just for right-siding help.)

[Yes this is asking for a lot from a pickup "expert", but I think we should discuss how the hands should be bid, not assuming partner has misbid.]

Of course, some days partner will have just Kxx and we are down. But on other days, he has ♦A making 3NT at least 50%, and on others he will have the 9 -- with neither he will know to go on over 3♦.

Arend

[mike777]

good point pass with that ugly flat 13, let partner rebid 3h or bid 2nt to suggest some stopper from their side. Second choice would be xx to show ace of hearts.

[P_Marlowe]

3NT, just go for it.

I am not sure, I would agree with 2H,
but I can understand the call if green
versus green / red, red versus green
/ red I would prefer 3D, but that's a matter
of style.

But if I decided to bid 2H, I now bid 3NT.
Afterall I have heart vaules, which will create
most likly a 2nd stopper.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pigpenz]

yes i think the opener has a lot do do with it, he is underno obligation to bid once 2♥ cue bid is doubled....watching a vue graph this where sound partnerships have explicit understandings as to what:
pass
2nt
redouble
3diamonds
etc.

In real life partner had no ♥ stopper and bid 2nt anyway

[kenberg]

Thanks for saying what really happened, I always like to know. I was one of the 3D voters, for reasons pretty much the same as those given by the other 3D voters. There are various hands that might bid 2H. Given I held a flattish and modest limit raise, of course I would pass 2NT and expect that to be the right place. That is not what I have, and I can clarify that by bidding 3D to show length, modest strength, and wariness about NT. With a stronger hand I would raise to 3NT or, possibly, bid 3H depending on the exact hand.

The direct raise to 3NT with the actual hand could be right (I am guessing this was your choice since 3D passed out would probably be forgotten) and received about as many votes as the more cautious 3D. If partner bid 2NT without a heart stop he must like living dangerously. Without the double of 2H this sort of bluff might work (not my style, but I acknowledge it can work), but after the double surely the lead will be a heart. Bidding NT here without a stop seems crazy. But then I am not an expert, self-proclaimed or otherwise.

Ken

[Winstonm]

I really don't grasp a 3D rebid on this hand - we've already announced a limit raise in diamonds, and if partner has a minimum without hearts stopped he can bid 3D himself. 2N therefore is a game try, and my J10 of hearts along with my extra diamond makes my hand seem worth a 3N call. We may not make it, but anything else seems an insult to partner's bidding, IMHO.

WinstonM

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on Jul 3 2005, 06:19 PM, said:

I really don't grasp a 3D rebid on this hand - we've already announced a limit raise in diamonds, and if partner has a minimum without hearts stopped he can bid 3D himself.  2N therefore is a game try, and my J10 of hearts along with my extra diamond makes my hand seem worth a 3N call.  We may not make it, but anything else seems an insult to partner's bidding, IMHO. 

Apparently the insult on partner's bidding would have been well justified at the table..

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on Jul 3 2005, 12:33 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 3 2005, 06:19 PM, said:

I really don't grasp a 3D rebid on this hand - we've already announced a limit raise in diamonds, and if partner has a minimum without hearts stopped he can bid 3D himself.  2N therefore is a game try, and my J10 of hearts along with my extra diamond makes my hand seem worth a 3N call.  We may not make it, but anything else seems an insult to partner's bidding, IMHO. 

Apparently the insult on partner's bidding would have been well justified at the table..

Ageed.

[pigpenz]

at the table after I bid 3NT my left hand opponent bid 4♣'s which came back to me and I doubled....My partner was so insulted by my cue bid and 3NT call over his 2NT rebid that he forgot to defend properly. Oh well it was only an individual

[the hog]

Would it be possible to use standard accepted notation for bids by opponents? eg opponent's bids are in brackets
1D (1H) 2H (X)
2NT (P) ?

This makes the auction far easier to understand rather than having to do cryptic crosswords.

3NT. The hand AWM posted is an impossible one for partner to hold, as this is a clear cut pass over the X