[paulsim]

Hi all,


Are these secuences penalty or takeout?
Do you think its meaning is clear cut or is there room to be partnership agreement?

a.-

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b.-

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c.-

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d.-

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e.-

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Thanks all,
Kind Regards,
Paul_S

[DavidKok]

These days all of them are takeout. At some point in the past only example c) would have been a standard takeout double, with the others depending on the partnership. These days we just don't defend at the 2-level anymore when people have bid and raised, or bid and voluntarily rebid, their suit. And "my hand is as takeout-double oriented as it gets in context of me not having made a takeout double earlier" is a frequent hand type with no good bid.

With one partner I play STOPP doubles (Strength, TakeOut, Penalties, Penalties!) which would mean by partnership agreement examples a, b, d and e would be penalties. This is an inferior treatment but we're focusing on keeping it simple for now.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 05:03, said:

These days all of them are takeout. At some point in the past only example c) would have been a standard takeout double, with the others depending on the partnership. These days we just don't defend at the 2-level anymore when people have bid and raised, or bid and voluntarily rebid, their suit. And "my hand is as takeout-double oriented as it gets in context of me not having made a takeout double earlier" is a frequent hand type with no good bid.

With one partner I play STOPP doubles (Strength, TakeOut, Penalties, Penalties!) which would mean by partnership agreement examples a, b, d and e would be penalties. This is an inferior treatment but we're focusing on keeping it simple for now.

For me a b d e are pens, c is takeout, abde scream 5 card trump holding to me. The problem with playing them for takeout is that you put a LOT of pressure on partner to reopen with a double with shapely (sub)minimums and have to be able to pass smoothly with whopping penalty doubles.

[DavidKok]

When is the last time you had a penalty double of their 1-level bid and they voluntarily rebid it at the 2-level? It's a nice theory but the hands just don't get dealt that way. I'd much rather have an actual use for the second double.
There is no pressure on partner to reopen, they just smoothly pass it out. This idea of getting them for a four-digit number is just an illusion, give up on it.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 06:41, said:

When is the last time you had a penalty double of their 1-level bid and they voluntarily rebid it at the 2-level? It's a nice theory but the hands just don't get dealt that way. I'd much rather have an actual use for the second double.
There is no pressure on partner to reopen, they just smoothly pass it out. This idea of getting them for a four-digit number is just an illusion, give up on it.

I held KJ98x opener had AQ10xxx dummy and pard each had one. You're more likely to get 300/500 against a part score or a 3N which happens to make but nobody bids.

I don't see a use for a takeout double where partner has already shown the other 2 suits with his double, particularly if opener can't be short in his first suit.

[DavidKok]

Takeout doubles don't guarantee the other suits anymore, so you want to be able to catch up. Regardless, double is the most flexible bid in any auction. Using it for hands that are uncertain about our best strain or offensive vs. defensive prospects has many ways to win.

Rebidding AQTxxx on this auction is not a move I would recommend.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 08:53, said:

Takeout doubles don't guarantee the other suits anymore, so you want to be able to catch up. Regardless, double is the most flexible bid in any auction. Using it for hands that are uncertain about our best strain or offensive vs. defensive prospects has many ways to win.

Rebidding AQTxxx on this auction is not a move I would recommend.

Ask pretty much ANYBODY in the UK at reasonable but not international level and 1♦-P-1♥-X shows the other 2 suits.

So you pass over 1♦-P-1♠-X with a 1462 14 count ? what do you do when 3♣ comes back to you ?

[DavidKok]

I'm sorry, I don't understand which hand I am supposed to bid on which auction. (1♦)-P-(1♠)-X; (P)-3♣-(P)-? and I have a 1=4=6=2 14-count?

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 10:44, said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand which hand I am supposed to bid on which auction. (1♦)-P-(1♠)-X; (P)-3♣-(P)-? and I have a 1=4=6=2 14-count?

Yes, in my book playing any US style system, pass over 1♦-P-1♠-X suggests a weak NT without spade support, so if you have real diamonds you bid them now, otherwise partner with 3 diamonds never raises.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 06:41, said:

When is the last time you had a penalty double of their 1-level bid and they voluntarily rebid it at the 2-level? It's a nice theory but the hands just don't get dealt that way. I'd much rather have an actual use for the second double.
There is no pressure on partner to reopen, they just smoothly pass it out. This idea of getting them for a four-digit number is just an illusion, give up on it.

Maybe I’m out of step but to me it’s silly to argue that (a), as an example, means that east’s double of 2S showed a hand that wanted to double 1S for penalty. I’m old-fashioned I guess, in that I think that seeing partner double 1N for takeout, thus showing strength, means that I don’t need 7 tricks in my hand to double 2S.

KJ108x x Axx xxxx Please explain why I can’t have this hand, with opener AQ10xxx KQx x Qxx and partner x AJxx Kxxx Kxxx and responder x xxxxx Jxx AJxx? Or similar.

Does anyone think that partner should double for a second time if 2S is passed around?

Btw, 2N over 2S would, for me, be lebensohl but I can see an argument for it showing two places to play.

In © I think double has to be takeout but I don’t recall ever seeing this. Opener ought to be 5=6, given that responder did not make a negative double.

[helene_t]

A and D penalty.
B and E game tries agreeing the unbid major.
C t/o

B and D may look similar but in D we can bid 2h to show a gt in spades, and this frees up dbl which can then be used as penalty.

[dokoko]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-10, 06:41, said:

When is the last time you had a penalty double of their 1-level bid and they voluntarily rebid it at the 2-level? It's a nice theory but the hands just don't get dealt that way.

Last time is two weeks ago. 2!Dx went for 800 at imps.

In the old days people had good hands with good suits for a voluntary rebid. Nowadays with nobody doubling them, they just show distribution.