[jillybean]

Playing 12-14 NT, do you play super accept after a transfer? If yes, would you consider it expert standard?
What hand type will respond 3M?

[Stephen Tu]

Yes/Yes/max with 4 support.

[LBengtsson]

jillybean, on 2023-March-03, 22:53, said:

Playing 12-14 NT, do you play super accept after a transfer? If yes, would you consider it expert standard?
What hand type will respond 3M?

I think a additional question that needs to be asked is opposite a 12-14 1NT opener, do you always run with 5M332 with a very bad hand, or sit tight and hope the opps. bid a suit or convention and do not X.

I think it is accepted that with a weak 5M332 opposite a strong NT the transfer is always on, and a superaccept bids up to the level of LOTT, the slight extra strength and trump fit making up for the lack of HCP generally, and that the opps. have less chance to penalise a 3M contract where the opener is stronger.

Obviously, the percentage times that a superaccept exists is low for both NT ranges, simply because it needs opener to hold both 4 card trump support and a maximum, but also obviously a superaccept for weak NT will come up more times because there is more chance that opener holds 14HCPs than 17HCPs with a trump fit. Also, with a 12-14 NT there will be more times opener will be opening 1NT generally in the bidding.

Imo, I feel a simulation may be the best and only way to test the merits of superaccepting with either a 12-14 or 15-17 NT, jillybean, and a variety of hands that cannot bid on to game (and stick in 3M) once the superaccept has been made may be the only way to determine whether with a weaker NT range it is good bridge. Bidding up to the level of LOTT is generally good bridge, but with balanced hands opposite each other LOTT values diminish slightly because there are less chances of scoring ruffs than with more distributional hands. And with more distributional hands, the opps. usually have there own contract to pursue also.

[jillybean]

How do you run a simulation?
1NT (P) I will always transfer with a bad 5332 but undiscussed.

[Cyberyeti]

We superaccept with ALL hands with 4 card support except minimum 4333s. I think expert standard certainly includes superaccepts, but not sure everybody does it as often as we do.

Do you mean by "What hand type will respond 3M? " bidding 3M over 1N or over the transfer ? We play 1N-3M as GF suit setting please cue or bid 3N with something really unsuitable.

[TMorris]

Echoing the others I will superaccept with four card support and a maximum (with 2nt in my case to minimise giving information to the opposition). With four card support and a minimum I can bid 3M at once but don't have to. It depends on the opposition and the vulnerablity.

[DavidKok]

When we briefly played 12-14 NT we did superaccept on most 4-card suits. We had two different bids for minimum and maximum superaccepts. I think refusing to superaccept with a lousy 4333 is just good bridge. One advantage is that responder will be in a better position to judge the value of their hand, secure of a 9-card fit. A simple accept might be done on a doubleton only.
I think there's a good case to be made for bidding Stayman with 5M332 hands opposite 1NT, especially with an invitational or GF spades hand or a weak or GF hearts hand. But that might be beyond the scope of the original question.
I've got some thoughts on superaccepts over a strong notrump, but I second the suggestion that a simulation would help a lot in figuring out what to do.

[Cyberyeti]

TMorris, on 2023-March-04, 03:18, said:

Echoing the others I will superaccept with four card support and a maximum (with 2nt in my case to minimise giving information to the opposition). With four card support and a minimum I can bid 3M at once but don't have to. It depends on the opposition and the vulnerablity.

We have a different philosophy here, we try to give responder the info as he will often declare. We find it better to put the weak NT on the deck and let opps guess if declarer has a 3 count or a 9 count if in a part score, and if in game let the unseen hand have nothing known about it other than the 5 card heart suit.

We break to a new suit with a max and length/values in the suit, 3 of our suit with a minimum, 2N with a max 4333. Occasionally where we have one of those hands with 3 of partner's major, a side decent 5 card suit and we thought about upgrading initially, decided against but now the knowledge that partner has a 5 card major opposite our 3 means this feels like more than a 14 count, we'll break the transfer into the suit.

[jillybean]

TMorris, on 2023-March-04, 03:18, said:

(with 2nt in my case to minimise giving information to the opposition).

Alerted?!

[jillybean]

Q2.

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I've added 2NT as the super accept with max as this seems to make the most sense.
Your next bidI assume, will be 3♣, a forward going cue in support of spades?

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2023-March-04, 11:19, said:

Q2.

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I've added 2NT as the super accept with max as this seems to make the most sense.
Your next bidI assume, will be 3♣, a forward going cue in support of spades?

It doesn't matter much. I make forcing bids until my 4N bid is RKC.

[TMorris]

jillybean, on 2023-March-04, 11:12, said:

Alerted?!

Both responses are alerted by us.

[jillybean]

TMorris, on 2023-March-04, 13:59, said:

Both responses are alerted by us.

You had me concerned when you said "to minimise giving information to the opposition"

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[mikeh]

akwoo, on 2023-March-04, 12:33, said:

It doesn't matter much. I make forcing bids until my 4N bid is RKC.

If 2N was a superaccept, 4N is keycard. Nobody should be bidding a quantitative 4N with at least nine spades. Why futz around?

[mikeh]

I didn’t answer earlier because I have no experience with transfer responses to a weak notrump. I think transfers have problems on slam hands, because they usually mean the strong hand is dummy while the weak notrump, constrained in hcp and shape, declares

For game, it’s not usually much of an issue…right-siding problems are basically random when the strength is roughly equal.

Me: I play a relay method starting (for most gf hands) with an artificial 2D, with a structure designed to make responder declarer in most suit contracts.

I do think, fwiw, that superaccepts have merit, if only because, with both opps silent, responder will fairly often have an ‘in-between’ hand, whether for game or slam, and learning of the fit and (I’d play) max hcp will be valuable. There is little risk of a bad result for 3M failing (and even less for it being doubled) when the opps are silent initially. Little is not no but the benefits seem to me to outweigh this minor issue.

[TMorris]

jillybean, on 2023-March-04, 14:00, said:

You had me concerned when you said "to minimise giving information to the opposition"

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Only legal information

As Mike mentions, after 2nt 4nt is KC and as I want to be in slam opposite one keycard I bid it. Again I minimise information to the opposition and can make sure I play in spades protecting the King of hearts if need be.

[TMorris]

Something you need to consider over a 2nt response is whether or not you retransfer. We do re-transfer so can get a choice as to who plays it. Usually if responder is weak we get opener to play it.

[TMorris]

On a more general note I assume that the higher the standard of the opposition to more important it is to minimise information you give out in your bidding.

I kibbitz quite a high standard online and see most top class pairs bid normal stayman over a 2nt opening whereas when I play in a club most bid puppet stayman which leaks more information. I have not persuaded my main partner to change as she plays puppet with all her other partners so changing for one has a high forget factor but I think I probably should be doing that in principle.

[jillybean]

Our auction, Super Accept undiscussed but partner says no S/A without a doubleton.

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One pair found 6NT, all other pairs played in 6♠, everyone made 7

Playing in the Open there is not often a wide range of contracts and little difference in the result. It's quick to see where you went off! I like it.

I've only just started playing transfers over 12-14 NT again, new partner plays transfers and old partner forgets if we do something out of the ordinary. My auction would have started 1NT 2♦ gf 2♠, we may have had the strong hand playing NT

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction would show a 4333 maximum immediately, confirm all the AKs by cue bidding, then confirm ♠K was missing and sign off in 6N if we transferred, but we'd actually start 1N-3♠.