[michel444]

Fert opening is a bid is distrubtive
all Forcing pass Biding system have 1 or more
if you open Pass with X+ point
you need to bid somthing else when you have ZERO point
some use 1♦
other use 1♥
no much was writen on the subject mainly because ACBL banned the forcing Pass Biding system
i am curently trying to write a defense againts the 1♥ and 1♠ Fert opening from the Spread Variant of Forcing Pass

http://www.users.on....READ/index.html

1♥ 0-8 HCP { 0-5 HCP any shape, 6 HCP balanced 7 HCP 4+heart unbalanced , balanced with 4-5 ♥ have 8 HCP }
1♠ 6-10 HCP 0-3♥ 6-8 unbalanced 7-9 balanced 10 is balanced w/o 4♠
The description may seem strange .
1C is a limited opening with 4+H 8-13 HCP unbalanced or 9-14 HPC balanced .

after some change i came up with this structure over 1 ♥
Double 4+♥ (somebody try to still my natural bid) 14+ HCP unlimited if LHO pass partner should pass with 3+♥
1♠ 4+ ♠ 0-3 ♥ 14+ HCP Advencer must answer
1 NT 14+ HCP no 4 cards major NF
2♣ both minor 4+♣ & 4+♦ 12+ HCP Forcing
2♦ 6+ ♦ 0-3M NF
2♥ 3 suit short ♥ 4=1=4=4 or 4=0=5=4 4=0=4=5 16+ HCP
will apreciate any reaction
michel

[straube]

I've waited for someone with FP experience to weigh in but I would think that double should be more flexible and announce a big hand. After a double, partner's 1S advance would be negative.

[DavidKok]

I've played FP once (though with quite a bit of research put into it), I doubt that qualifies.

[pilun]

In Australia, I play strong pass in serious teams events, whenever it is legal.

Our fert is 1♠, 0-7 any. (Note we play strong pass only when not vulnerable, strong club when vulnerable)

Against us, common is to play a Precision-style defence, so double = 16+ any, all others 11-15 and natural. That's simple but misses out on a lot of penalties. Since fert auctions will sometimes derail the other side, it's important to gain compensation.

Simple enough and best is double as balanced, rest are transfers. After their 1♠ fert:

X = 14+ balanced
then partner judges when to pass, typically scattered values with 3+♠s. A bit of poker.
1NT response is to play, 2♣ Staymannic, transfers etc.

1NT+ overcalls are transfers on shapely hands.
A good alternative is to play 1NT as a big unbalanced hand, Romex-style.

[michel444]

pilun, on 2022-September-18, 16:06, said:

In Australia, I play strong pass in serious teams events, whenever it is legal.

Our fert is 1♠, 0-7 any. (Note we play strong pass only when not vulnerable, strong club when vulnerable)

Against us, common is to play a Precision-style defence, so double = 16+ any, all others 11-15 and natural. That's simple but misses out on a lot of penalties. Since fert auctions will sometimes derail the other side, it's important to gain compensation.

Simple enough and best is double as balanced, rest are transfers. After their 1♠ fert:

X = 14+ balanced
then partner judges when to pass, typically scattered values with 3+♠s. A bit of poker.
1NT response is to play, 2♣ Staymannic, transfers etc.

1NT+ overcalls are transfers on shapely hands.
A good alternative is to play 1NT as a big unbalanced hand, Romex-style.

Thank you for replay !
as i found out the big problem with the big hand who double a Fert opening that he is likeky to find partner with 4-6 HCP a balanced hand who is force to replay.
LHO is siting over you and can be as strong as you
the question if the double is 16+ what partner do with Zero point and a balanced 2=3=4=4 or 2=4=3=4 ect.. ?

[sfi]

michel444, on 2022-September-18, 23:20, said:

Thank you for replay !
as i found out the big problem with the big hand who double a Fert opening that he is likeky to find partner with 4-6 HCP a balanced hand who is force to replay.
LHO is siting over you and can be as strong as you
the question if the double is 16+ what partner do with Zero point and a balanced 2=3=4=4 or 2=4=3=4 ect.. ?

Pilun has much more experience with strong pass and ferts, but I always like having a bid (probably the next step) that shows a bad hand in response to a double. So if your double of 1S is 16+, maybe 1NT shows 0-5 and a hand that doesn't want to try and beat 1Sx.

[michel444]

this is my third version
of defense on Fert 1♠
I am not happy with it .

pass 0-11 any 12- balanced (3 Ace should bid 1NT expect 3=3=3=4 )

Double 16+ any shape



1NT balanced 13 – 15 HCP ( may have a 5 cards major )


2 ♣ 4+ ♥ 12-15 HCP (unbalanced) /
2 ♦ 4+ SPADE ♠ 0-3 H ♥ 12 -15 HCP ( unbalanced ) /
2 ♥ 4+ ♦ 4+ ♣ 12-15 HCP /
2 ♠ 3 SUIT SHORT SPADE ♠ 12 -15HCP ?? / maybe 16+ /
2NT 23-24 HCP 3-3-3-4 SHAPE ??
3 ♣ 6+ ♣ 12 -15 HCP NF (1=1=4=7 )
3 ♦ 6+ ♦ 12-15 HCP NF (1=1=7=4 ) ??LOSER COUNT?
3 ♥ single-suited 6+ ♥ 4-5 LOSER NF
3 ♠ STOPPERS ASK
3NT Running Minor with A ♠ ( even splinter )or K♠ ( 2-3 ♠ )
4H to play
4S to play

[michel444]

michel444, on 2022-September-19, 01:03, said:

this is my third version
of defense on Fert 1♠
I am not happy with it .

pass 0-11 any 12- balanced (3 Ace should bid 1NT expect 3=3=3=4 )

Double 16+ any shape



1NT balanced 13 – 15 HCP ( may have a 5 cards major )


2 ♣ 4+ ♥ 12-15 HCP (unbalanced) /
2 ♦ 4+ SPADE ♠ 0-3 H ♥ 12 -15 HCP ( unbalanced ) /
2 ♥ 4+ ♦ 4+ ♣ 12-15 HCP /
2 ♠ 3 SUIT SHORT SPADE ♠ 12 -15HCP ?? / maybe 16+ /
2NT 23-24 HCP 3-3-3-4 SHAPE ??
3 ♣ 6+ ♣ 12 -15 HCP NF (1=1=4=7 )
3 ♦ 6+ ♦ 12-15 HCP NF (1=1=7=4 ) ??LOSER COUNT?
3 ♥ single-suited 6+ ♥ 4-5 LOSER NF
3 ♠ STOPPERS ASK
3NT Running Minor with A ♠ ( even splinter )or K♠ ( 2-3 ♠ )
4H to play
4S to play

the reason i am not happy with the defense is 2 bad example
i decide that 2♣ is the negative answer 0-7 HCP
I don't want a weak partner to play 1NT

2 real bad example
first double 1 spade with a 2=3=4=4 balanced 16-17 hcp
partner replay 2C negative ! Where do I go ?

Second double 1 spade with 19+ HCP solid 6 spade and 4 club
partner bid 2 ♣ negative I bid 2 spade partner pass I make 11 trick

[kreivi68]

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1♥ fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1♠= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♠, 16+
2♥= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1♠:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♥
2♥= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

[pescetom]

kreivi68, on 2022-September-19, 03:18, said:

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1♥ fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1♠= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♠, 16+
2♥= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1♠:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♥
2♥= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

Interesting. How do things proceed after X showing oM or bal?

[kreivi68]

pescetom, on 2022-September-19, 03:37, said:

Interesting. How do things proceed after X showing oM or bal?

I only read about first bids somewhere back in the 90's when you could face strong pass systems here in Finland (written defenses were allowed). Then I wrote developments myself. But unfortunately I don't have my notes anymore because nobody plays HUM systems anymore (strict ruling on them also here nowadays).

One thing is that advancer should be eager to pass partner's X with either overall strength and/or length in the fert suit. And I think that I used 1NT as an artificial relay bid while suit bids were weaker.
Transfers could also work after X starting from 1NT. And of course we are bit on the shaky ground after X but opponents are even more so.

The idea of Antinonse was that it had the same logic whether the fert opening was 1♦, 1♥ or 1♠. It works best against 1♦:

1♥/♠= natural, 11-15
X= diamonds / balanced
1NT= clubs
2♣/♦= 5♥/♠, 16+
2♥= 4=4=1=4, 11-15
2♠= 4=4=1=4, 16+
2NT= minors 5-5+

[michel444]

kreivi68, on 2022-September-19, 03:18, said:

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1♥ fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1♠= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♠, 16+
2♥= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1♠:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+♣
2♣= 5+♦
2♦= 5+♥
2♥= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2♠= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

THANK YOU VERY MUCH
look very good
advencer bid will be problematic but are always are in defensive biding
normaly you dont get penalitie from doubling 1♥ or 1 spade
someone is going to run it can be LHO or RHO

[DinDIP]

I've played a fair amount of FP, including with Pilun. Also played it once a year for a few years so had to practice a lot, which meant I had to look at how the opps might defend. What worked best (IMO) is my preferred defence:
X = (13)14+ BAL, the most likely way to penalise the fert or any attempted runout
1N = 17/18+, not BAL (2♣ = 0-6 any; 2♦ = Stayman, most hands with 4M; 2M/3m = 5+, denies 4M)
2any/3m = 13-17, ASPRO (i.e. 2♣ = 4+H, two-suiter at least 54; 2♦ = 4+S and 4+m; 2M= 6+M; 2N = both m; 3m = 6+)

The overall design objectives are:
1. don't focus on penalising the fert but nonetheless make it possible to penalise them;
2. show shape the most efficient way with shapely Roth-Stone-style opening bids (so use ASPRO as it is more effective than any other notrump defence);
3. use 1N as a strong strong club, always with an UNBAL hand; and
4. try to get the auction into territory where we feel comfortable.

At the table the biggest problem is finding a way to divide 14+BAL into bunches that are manageable so we are not always over- or under-bidding. A tolerant attitude is required by both partners in my experience.