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Fert opening how you bid againtd Fert opening

#1 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-17, 14:06

Fert opening is a bid is distrubtive
all Forcing pass Biding system have 1 or more
if you open Pass with X+ point
you need to bid somthing else when you have ZERO point
some use 1
other use 1
no much was writen on the subject mainly because ACBL banned the forcing Pass Biding system
i am curently trying to write a defense againts the 1 and 1 Fert opening from the Spread Variant of Forcing Pass

http://www.users.on....READ/index.html

1 0-8 HCP { 0-5 HCP any shape, 6 HCP balanced 7 HCP 4+heart unbalanced , balanced with 4-5 have 8 HCP }
1 6-10 HCP 0-3 6-8 unbalanced 7-9 balanced 10 is balanced w/o 4
The description may seem strange .
1C is a limited opening with 4+H 8-13 HCP unbalanced or 9-14 HPC balanced .

after some change i came up with this structure over 1
Double 4+ (somebody try to still my natural bid) 14+ HCP unlimited if LHO pass partner should pass with 3+
1 4+ 0-3 14+ HCP Advencer must answer
1 NT 14+ HCP no 4 cards major NF
2 both minor 4+ & 4+ 12+ HCP Forcing
2 6+ 0-3M NF
2 3 suit short 4=1=4=4 or 4=0=5=4 4=0=4=5 16+ HCP
will apreciate any reaction
michel
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2022-September-18, 08:18

I've waited for someone with FP experience to weigh in but I would think that double should be more flexible and announce a big hand. After a double, partner's 1S advance would be negative.
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-September-18, 13:43

I've played FP once (though with quite a bit of research put into it), I doubt that qualifies.
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#4 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-September-18, 16:06

In Australia, I play strong pass in serious teams events, whenever it is legal.

Our fert is 1, 0-7 any. (Note we play strong pass only when not vulnerable, strong club when vulnerable)

Against us, common is to play a Precision-style defence, so double = 16+ any, all others 11-15 and natural. That's simple but misses out on a lot of penalties. Since fert auctions will sometimes derail the other side, it's important to gain compensation.

Simple enough and best is double as balanced, rest are transfers. After their 1 fert:

X = 14+ balanced
then partner judges when to pass, typically scattered values with 3+s. A bit of poker.
1NT response is to play, 2 Staymannic, transfers etc.

1NT+ overcalls are transfers on shapely hands.
A good alternative is to play 1NT as a big unbalanced hand, Romex-style.
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#5 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-18, 23:20

View Postpilun, on 2022-September-18, 16:06, said:

In Australia, I play strong pass in serious teams events, whenever it is legal.

Our fert is 1, 0-7 any. (Note we play strong pass only when not vulnerable, strong club when vulnerable)

Against us, common is to play a Precision-style defence, so double = 16+ any, all others 11-15 and natural. That's simple but misses out on a lot of penalties. Since fert auctions will sometimes derail the other side, it's important to gain compensation.

Simple enough and best is double as balanced, rest are transfers. After their 1 fert:

X = 14+ balanced
then partner judges when to pass, typically scattered values with 3+s. A bit of poker.
1NT response is to play, 2 Staymannic, transfers etc.

1NT+ overcalls are transfers on shapely hands.
A good alternative is to play 1NT as a big unbalanced hand, Romex-style.
Thank you for replay !
as i found out the big problem with the big hand who double a Fert opening that he is likeky to find partner with 4-6 HCP a balanced hand who is force to replay.
LHO is siting over you and can be as strong as you
the question if the double is 16+ what partner do with Zero point and a balanced 2=3=4=4 or 2=4=3=4 ect.. ?
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2022-September-18, 23:48

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-18, 23:20, said:

Thank you for replay !
as i found out the big problem with the big hand who double a Fert opening that he is likeky to find partner with 4-6 HCP a balanced hand who is force to replay.
LHO is siting over you and can be as strong as you
the question if the double is 16+ what partner do with Zero point and a balanced 2=3=4=4 or 2=4=3=4 ect.. ?

Pilun has much more experience with strong pass and ferts, but I always like having a bid (probably the next step) that shows a bad hand in response to a double. So if your double of 1S is 16+, maybe 1NT shows 0-5 and a hand that doesn't want to try and beat 1Sx.
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#7 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 01:03

this is my third version
of defense on Fert 1
I am not happy with it .

pass 0-11 any 12- balanced (3 Ace should bid 1NT expect 3=3=3=4 )

Double 16+ any shape



1NT balanced 13 – 15 HCP ( may have a 5 cards major )


2 ♣ 4+ ♥ 12-15 HCP (unbalanced) /
2 ♦ 4+ SPADE ♠ 0-3 H ♥ 12 -15 HCP ( unbalanced ) /
2 ♥ 4+ ♦ 4+ ♣ 12-15 HCP /
2 ♠ 3 SUIT SHORT SPADE ♠ 12 -15HCP ?? / maybe 16+ /
2NT 23-24 HCP 3-3-3-4 SHAPE ??
3 ♣ 6+ ♣ 12 -15 HCP NF (1=1=4=7 )
3 ♦ 6+ ♦ 12-15 HCP NF (1=1=7=4 ) ??LOSER COUNT?
3 ♥ single-suited 6+ ♥ 4-5 LOSER NF
3 ♠ STOPPERS ASK
3NT Running Minor with A ♠ ( even splinter )or K♠ ( 2-3 ♠ )
4H to play
4S to play
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#8 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 01:16

View Postmichel444, on 2022-September-19, 01:03, said:

this is my third version
of defense on Fert 1
I am not happy with it .

pass 0-11 any 12- balanced (3 Ace should bid 1NT expect 3=3=3=4 )

Double 16+ any shape



1NT balanced 13 – 15 HCP ( may have a 5 cards major )


2 ♣ 4+ ♥ 12-15 HCP (unbalanced) /
2 ♦ 4+ SPADE ♠ 0-3 H ♥ 12 -15 HCP ( unbalanced ) /
2 ♥ 4+ ♦ 4+ ♣ 12-15 HCP /
2 ♠ 3 SUIT SHORT SPADE ♠ 12 -15HCP ?? / maybe 16+ /
2NT 23-24 HCP 3-3-3-4 SHAPE ??
3 ♣ 6+ ♣ 12 -15 HCP NF (1=1=4=7 )
3 ♦ 6+ ♦ 12-15 HCP NF (1=1=7=4 ) ??LOSER COUNT?
3 ♥ single-suited 6+ ♥ 4-5 LOSER NF
3 ♠ STOPPERS ASK
3NT Running Minor with A ♠ ( even splinter )or K♠ ( 2-3 ♠ )
4H to play
4S to play

the reason i am not happy with the defense is 2 bad example
i decide that 2 is the negative answer 0-7 HCP
I don't want a weak partner to play 1NT

2 real bad example
first double 1 spade with a 2=3=4=4 balanced 16-17 hcp
partner replay 2C negative ! Where do I go ?

Second double 1 spade with 19+ HCP solid 6 spade and 4 club
partner bid 2 negative I bid 2 spade partner pass I make 11 trick
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#9 User is offline   kreivi68 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 03:18

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1 fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+, 16+
2= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+
2= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 03:37

View Postkreivi68, on 2022-September-19, 03:18, said:

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1 fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+, 16+
2= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+
2= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors


Interesting. How do things proceed after X showing oM or bal?
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#11 User is offline   kreivi68 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 04:17

View Postpescetom, on 2022-September-19, 03:37, said:

Interesting. How do things proceed after X showing oM or bal?


I only read about first bids somewhere back in the 90's when you could face strong pass systems here in Finland (written defenses were allowed). Then I wrote developments myself. But unfortunately I don't have my notes anymore because nobody plays HUM systems anymore (strict ruling on them also here nowadays).

One thing is that advancer should be eager to pass partner's X with either overall strength and/or length in the fert suit. And I think that I used 1NT as an artificial relay bid while suit bids were weaker.
Transfers could also work after X starting from 1NT. And of course we are bit on the shaky ground after X but opponents are even more so.

The idea of Antinonse was that it had the same logic whether the fert opening was 1, 1 or 1. It works best against 1:

1/= natural, 11-15
X= diamonds / balanced
1NT= clubs
2/= 5/, 16+
2= 4=4=1=4, 11-15
2= 4=4=1=4, 16+
2NT= minors 5-5+
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#12 User is offline   michel444 

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Posted 2022-September-19, 05:19

View Postkreivi68, on 2022-September-19, 03:18, said:

Swedish Antinonsense defense is worth considering. It is based on transfers.
Against a 1 fert:

X= either hearts or balanced, gives better chances to penalize
1= spades, 11-15
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+, 16+
2= 4=1=4=4, 11-15
2= 4=1=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

If the opening is 1:

X= either spades or balanced
1NT= 5+
2= 5+
2= 5+
2= 1=4=4=4, 11-15
2= 1=4=4=4, 16+
2NT= minors

THANK YOU VERY MUCH
look very good
advencer bid will be problematic but are always are in defensive biding
normaly you dont get penalitie from doubling 1 or 1 spade
someone is going to run it can be LHO or RHO
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#13 User is offline   DinDIP 

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Posted 2022-November-05, 03:56

I've played a fair amount of FP, including with Pilun. Also played it once a year for a few years so had to practice a lot, which meant I had to look at how the opps might defend. What worked best (IMO) is my preferred defence:
X = (13)14+ BAL, the most likely way to penalise the fert or any attempted runout
1N = 17/18+, not BAL (2 = 0-6 any; 2 = Stayman, most hands with 4M; 2M/3m = 5+, denies 4M)
2any/3m = 13-17, ASPRO (i.e. 2 = 4+H, two-suiter at least 54; 2 = 4+S and 4+m; 2M= 6+M; 2N = both m; 3m = 6+)

The overall design objectives are:
1. don't focus on penalising the fert but nonetheless make it possible to penalise them;
2. show shape the most efficient way with shapely Roth-Stone-style opening bids (so use ASPRO as it is more effective than any other notrump defence);
3. use 1N as a strong strong club, always with an UNBAL hand; and
4. try to get the auction into territory where we feel comfortable.

At the table the biggest problem is finding a way to divide 14+BAL into bunches that are manageable so we are not always over- or under-bidding. A tolerant attitude is required by both partners in my experience.
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