[riverwalk3]

Having a potential slam with a minor fit is very tricky in matchpoints, because when exploring for slam you often have to commit to bypassing 3NT (which generally scores higher than 5 of a minor). I wonder if there are any situations where it's more prudent to give up nonjump Blackwood with a minor fit (which might be useless anyway - eg if you have 1 keycard partner will respond above 5 of your minor so you are forced to bid slam anyway) and instead have 4NT as a discouraging natural bid (whereas in IMPs 4NT would retain its traditional blackwood meaning).If you go down in slam off 2 Aces, odds are that it wasn't a big loss over 5 of a minor (as 5 of a minor would've been a poor result anyway).

Usually I avoid playing 5 of a minor in matchpoints unless distribution is extreme and/or there is an unstopped suit (and even then, often I play 7 card major fits instead).

In IMPs there isn't a huge concern in reaching 5 of a minor, so this would not apply here. Note that making 4NT also beats 5 of a minor making 6.

[Stephen Tu]

Use kickback (trump+1), or minorwood, or optional minorwood. 4nt as blackwood works very poorly when the fit is in a minor. But the fancier methods require careful discussion on when they do or do not apply, especially on ambiguous sequences where esp. hearts is potential trump suit and you have a diamond fit also.

[nullve]

You could play e.g.

4♦(key card ask)-?:

4♥ = even # of key cards
...4♠ = trump Q ask
......4N = no trump Q
........P: allowed
........(...)
......5♣+ = trump Q
...4N = to play
...(...)
4♠ = odd # of key cards, no trump Q
...4N = to play
...(...)
4N = odd # of key cards, trump Q
...P: allowed
...(...)

.

[mikeh]

One useful rule is that if the auction has included a passable 3N, as an offer to play 3N, and the other player has pulled 3N as an attempt to get to slam, then 4N by the 3N bidder rejects the slam try and is an attempt to play 4N.

Simply put: a player who has tried to play in 3N cannot ask for keycards….4N by that player is an attempt to lay 4N.

I do echo Stephen’s point about kickback. I detest minorwood….I think it up there with mini-Roman 2D as one of the worst conventions ever devised (and I have played both so know what I’m talking about). Although optional minorwood, in certain very specific sequences, is useful.

[riverwalk3]

 mikeh, on 2022-June-02, 03:04, said:

One useful rule is that if the auction has included a passable 3N, as an offer to play 3N, and the other player has pulled 3N as an attempt to get to slam, then 4N by the 3N bidder rejects the slam try and is an attempt to play 4N.

Simply put: a player who has tried to play in 3N cannot ask for keycards….4N by that player is an attempt to lay 4N.

I do echo Stephen’s point about kickback. I detest minorwood….I think it up there with mini-Roman 2D as one of the worst conventions ever devised (and I have played both so know what I’m talking about). Although optional minorwood, in certain very specific sequences, is useful.

I've learned bridge mainly from Richard Pavlicek, and generally a rebid of 4NT by someone who has previously bid notrump naturally is discouraging.

Eg 2N 3H 3S 4C 4N would be natural and discouraging slam.

However, what about an auction like 1S 2D 3D 4C? Say responder has a hand like S A H QJx D KQT98 C Axxx so the 4C control bid makes sense. 5C will probably not be a good score.

[mikeh]

 riverwalk3, on 2022-June-02, 09:59, said:

I've learned bridge mainly from Richard Pavlicek, and generally a rebid of 4NT by someone who has previously bid notrump naturally is discouraging.

Eg 2N 3H 3S 4C 4N would be natural and discouraging slam.

However, what about an auction like 1S 2D 3D 4C? Say responder has a hand like S A H QJx D KQT98 C Axxx so the 4C control bid makes sense. 5C will probably not be a good score.

Why would anyone bid 4C with that hand? I’d bid 3H and see what partner does. If he bids 3S, I bid 3N. Bids such as 3H are not cue bids. After the diamond raise,3N is an entirely plausible contract so 3H,or 3D if the bid and raised minor were clubs, is exploring for the best game, not a slam try.

If responder held, say, A QJx KQ109x AKxx then we’re hunting for slam and 4C makes sense.

[riverwalk3]

 mikeh, on 2022-June-02, 14:02, said:

Why would anyone bid 4C with that hand? I’d bid 3H and see what partner does. If he bids 3S, I bid 3N. Bids such as 3H are not cue bids. After the diamond raise,3N is an entirely plausible contract so 3H,or 3D if the bid and raised minor were clubs, is exploring for the best game, not a slam try.

If responder held, say, A QJx KQ109x AKxx then we’re hunting for slam and 4C makes sense.

This hand is 18 points with a diamond fit (probably 9 cards), 19 by Richard Pavlicek's methods. There admittedly might be duplication in hearts (partner could be short in hearts), but the trump texture is good. The combined strength is very close to 33 points here. Weaken the trumps to KQxxx and probably 3H (which I assume means heart stopper and could right-side 3NT if partner has Qx in clubs) stands out.

Possibly a better example could've been S Qx H Axx D KQT9x C Axx which is a perfect fitting hand for partner and only 30 points are needed when the fit is good (Qx in partner's opened suit and prime values in the unbid suits), though I'd actually be nervous about notrump with this type of hand (H/C ace knocked out, then when opponents win the Ace of Diamonds they run their suit), though I could see some players bid 3S in matchpoints here. I wanted QJx of hearts to make stopping in 4NT more attractive.

[mikeh]

 riverwalk3, on 2022-June-02, 15:24, said:

This hand is 18 points with a diamond fit (probably 9 cards), 19 by Richard Pavlicek's methods. There admittedly might be duplication in hearts (partner could be short in hearts), but the trump texture is good. The combined strength is very close to 33 points here. Weaken the trumps to KQxxx and probably 3H (which I assume means heart stopper and could right-side 3NT if partner has Qx in clubs) stands out.

Possibly a better example could've been S Qx H Axx D KQT9x C Axx which is a perfect fitting hand for partner and only 30 points are needed when the fit is good (Qx in partner's opened suit and prime values in the unbid suits), though I'd actually be nervous about notrump with this type of hand (H/C ace knocked out, then when opponents win the Ace of Diamonds they run their suit), though I could see some players bid 3S in matchpoints here. I wanted QJx of hearts to make stopping in 4NT more attractive.

I don’t much use hcp and length/shortness adjustments in suit bidding. I haven’t had a large number of discussions with true WC players but I do tend to play with expert partners and teammates, and I don’t recall any of them ever analyzing suit bidding contracts by reference to such methods. Imo they’re useful guides for players yet to learn more nuanced valuation techniques: the top players who teach have to use methods like this in their teaching since the methods they use themselves are too difficult to teach to non-experts. Imo.

Here, the A QJx KQ109x Axxx obviously has potential but experience suggests that partner usually has a minimum more often than a maximum….which is in accord with basic probabilities

There are many hands on which a 4C bid will drive us to 5D. Say partner lacks a heart control. Give him a nice hand: KQxxx xx AJxx KQx. Any complaints? 15 hcp!

Over 4C he bids 4D. Now what? I suppose on one level one could play 4N as natural, but that seems odd to me….counterintuitive in fact.

Give him KJxxx Kx AJxx Jx. A full 13. These days most good players open 1S with any decent 11 count, so I’m hardly picking a minimum. Over 4C, what should he bid? Maybe 4D but he has a heart control so he might bid 4H.

In any event, you’re not playing in notrump any more.

On each of these hands the correct matchpoint contract is 3N and on each it’s easy to reach after 3H. On the first, opener bids 3N or if feeling optimistic 4N, since he has extras….4N is natural, simply showing an extra strength 3N bid. Personally I wouldn’t do it with only one Ace and no side shortness. And he’d likely regret it if he did…it’s tough for responder to pass 4N.

On the second he bids 3S and passes my 3N.

As you noted in your OP, minor slams can be difficult to bid at mps….for a very good reason.

Note that I didn’t bid 3N over 3D with this hand, but intended to bid 3N if he bid 3S over 3H. This two step shows doubt about 3N. If one could have bid 3N earlier, but takes an extra bid before doing so, then one has expressed doubt. A clear 3N bids it right away.

Doubt can come in several forms. Sometimes it’s doubt that we can make 3N but on other occasions, as here, it’s doubt that we should settle for 3N.

Thus opener, if we bid 3N over 3D, has to have very good reason to pull…significant extras by way of shape or strength.

In contrast, after the slow way to 3N, opener is supposed to pull more frequently. Again, he needs a reason to pull but it doesn’t have to be as strong as it needs to be to pull a direct 3N.

I’m not claiming my style reaches all good slams, but I am claiming that it very rarely gets us to bad 5m contracts…bad meaning 3N scores better.

Now at imps, things are quite different. I’m not the least worried about trying for slam, settling for 5m making, when 3N makes an overtrick. The opps are welcome to that imp.

[riverwalk3]

 mikeh, on 2022-June-02, 16:42, said:

Over 4C he bids 4D. Now what? I suppose on one level one could play 4N as natural, but that seems odd to me….counterintuitive in fact.

This was the point of the discussion: 4NT natural is an unusual meaning, though possibly it's better to give up the other uses of 4NT in matchpoints when the fit is a minor (in IMPs it means what it used to: Blackwood without other agreements or a substitute cue bid if you play kickback). On each of the hands, you might bypass 3NT but still reach 4NT if you allow its meaning as natural, as the point was that blackwood was often useless with a minor fit due to the lack of space, and stopping at 5 of a minor is usually a poor score.

A slow 3NT might just be from lack of stoppers, not necessarily with extra values. Eg in the second example hand I gave S Qx H Axx D KQT9x C Axx opposite your example KJxxx Kx AJxx Jx the top matchpoint spot is probably 4S (a club lead always defeats 6m, and with a club lead 3NT only makes 3 if clubs are 4-4, and it goes down when clubs are 5-3 with the longer club having the As).