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Simple bid Make your opinion

Poll: Pls bid:) (51 member(s) have cast votes)

Pls bid:)

  1. pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. double (22 votes [43.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.14%

  3. 2 spades (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 2 nt (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 3 diamonds (28 votes [54.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.90%

  6. other (1 votes [1.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.96%

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#41 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 09:17

cherdano, on Jun 22 2005, 09:36 AM, said:

Edit: P.S.: If you play ELC, I assume you have to agree that after 2 X 4 P P, bidding 4 can show this hand type (two places to play -- with 3 of them, X again, with only spades, bid 3 or 4 spades immediately)?

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase.....
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#42 User is offline   omeroj 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 09:26

Quote

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase....


Well done...if you bid 3 opp 4 your p can defende with 5 or he must bid double with 4 cards of ? if he p p you will bid 4?
I would listen your opinions about this hand:)

Omero
Due sono le cose di cui sono sicuro:
1) Dell'universo che e' infinito
2) Della stupidita' umana
Della prima non ne sono nemmeno tanto sicuro....
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#43 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 09:34

omeroj, on Jun 22 2005, 10:26 AM, said:

Quote

Wow. Playing ELC I would expect that you could still double again to then correct C to D if required. Bidding 4S would show the monster hand with lots of good S. Hands rarely change during the bidding (barring mis-sorting...;-) but information concerning them does tend to increase....


Well done...if you bid 3 opp 4 your p can defende with 5 or he must bid double with 4 cards of ? if he p p you will bid 4?
I would listen your opinions about this hand:)

Omero

The hardest part of bidding is not shaping your bids to reflect your actual hand but rather choosing the call that most accurately shows what you have (under the circumstances). Under the bidding as shown, there is safety in trumps so 3D wins if you choose to overcall. (Pards tend to raise 2S bids in this sequence when they have 3, further interference or not.) A good pard will listen to the bidding (or lack of same) and draw conclusions based on the available information. Get your head out of your hand and into the auction. If you lose the chance to compete further it is likely because you shouldn't. (LHO has a 13 count with a stiff H and 4 S to the K and you will have your hands full playing 3D or even 2S for that matter.)
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#44 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 09:40

A typical situation (ie likely occurance) would be both LHO and pard have 10 counts with their own suit (who has Clubs and who has Spades remains to be seen). When LHO chooses his call, your pard may be disappointed with your hand, as you have promised a good opening hand for your call, and LTC notwithstanding your greatest attribute is the decent 6 card D suit, unless pard has 4+ spades which he will tend to bid if he has D tolerance and his 10 count (looking for game opposite your "good" hand).
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#45 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 10:29

cherdano, on Jun 22 2005, 10:36 AM, said:

I bid 3 for the same reason, but I am not as confident. Balancing 3 over 3 seems fine, but while I would bid 4 over 4, I don't feel very good about it. Isn't it an overbid?

Arend

Edit: P.S.: If you play ELC, I assume you have to agree that after 2 X 4 P P, bidding 4 can show this hand type (two places to play -- with 3 of them, X again, with only spades, bid 3 or 4 spades immediately)?

Well, with two suiter (five spades), leaping michaels is fine. I prefer "liberal leaping michaels" as one of the capelletti's wrote up in bridge world a long time ago. Misho prefers a hybrid thing where you can have 5/6 diamonds and 4, something like this hand, but I have never warmed up to that... maybe justin should play with misho as he suggested it here :-)

So major minor two suiter is ruled out. You can also rule out a hand with just long spades, because you would overcall in spades.. (2, 3, 4 depending upon stregth.. no preempts versus preempts, so with a GREAT spade one suiter, jump in spades). My authority on this is bridge sense, and also see Robson/Segal rule number one for competitive auctions above. But, and this is key, hands like this with four spades and a long minor are not ruled out when you make a double (well, if you are italian at least).

Europeans have been making offshape doubles for long time, as it is the most flexible bid. So over ... (2)=DBL=(4)=?

Most americans will assume doubler has tolerance for both minors, most europeans will not make this assumption (I think). If you play equal level conversion, where y our partner has the right distribution, or spades and diamomnds, you would not bid 5 if you had a TOLERANCE for diamonds. You would bid a careful 4NT to show clubs but a diamond tolerance. With support for both minors, simply double 4[he[ for takeout.

If you play (as suggested by Robson/Segal) not equal level conversion, but rather you can double with four spades and long in EITHER minor as the most flexible bid, your partner has to take that into account as well. Once again over 4[he] a double by advancer is for takeout to a minor (simply bid spades if you ahve them). And once again, 4NT shows clubs with a tolerance for diamonds. If advancer has diamonds with a tolernace for clubs, he should DOUBLE. And overcaller with both minors bids 4NT to let his partner choose (if he has a notrump hand, he passes 4X of course). With only one minor suit, opener bids it over the double.

This isn't perfect, but it should work well enough for people who use it. Once you remove the GOSH hands (no jump in suit initially), the "big" (you define bid) two suiter with major and minor (leaping michaels), and "big" minor two suiter (no immediate 4NT), the only two options left are 4-5, 4-6 hands with major minor, and true three suiter (well maybe some very strong balanced hands as well).

Is this method best? No idea, but it is surely playable. Over lebenhsohl, after the double, btw, I will rebid 3, not 3 to show this hand, and I am no worse off than those of you who started with 3. But I don't get to play 3 when that would have been "right".
--Ben--

#46 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 10:39

Ben, this seems all right, but I was wondering what MY rebid is if advancer passes. Do you pass 4 with the given hand?

Arend
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#47 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 10:51

At this vulnerability, yes I would pass 4. Certainly I can not under=write a five level contract with this hand.
--Ben--

#48 User is offline   omeroj 

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Posted 2005-June-22, 13:40

Quote

At this vulnerability, yes I would pass 4♥. Certainly I can not under=write a five level contract with this hand.

Yes i think that ben is right, i'm sry to see win 3 in this hand :P

Omero
Due sono le cose di cui sono sicuro:
1) Dell'universo che e' infinito
2) Della stupidita' umana
Della prima non ne sono nemmeno tanto sicuro....
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#49 User is offline   omeroj 

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Posted 2005-June-24, 00:47

Tks for you all...i saw that in the world there are more players that vote 3, but i'm happy to see that in the italy the 90% of players vote for double, tks again for your opinions.)

Omero
Due sono le cose di cui sono sicuro:
1) Dell'universo che e' infinito
2) Della stupidita' umana
Della prima non ne sono nemmeno tanto sicuro....
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#50 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2005-June-24, 01:52

On the Lebensohl question:

How many people play the paradox response here: i.e. would a 3D bid after the double show clubs (worth at least the 4 level) or just a hand with spades and diamonds. We got a bad score the other week when I assumed the first and partner had the second
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#51 User is offline   david_c 

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Posted 2005-June-24, 04:48

Just to clarify Mark's question:

The bidding is (2) : dbl : (p) : 2NT , (p) : 3.

Mark interpreted this as showing a good hand for clubs (Paradox), but I actually turned up with a strongish 4=2=6=1 hand.
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