[LBengtsson]

I was watching a intermediate/advanced game and this hand appeared. The traveller the next day showed that less than 40% reached 6♠, with one reaching the worse contract of 6NT (-2) at IMPS.

For a minute you are not a expert or very advanced and playing with a pick-up partner and are using a basic system such as Vanilla 2/1, SAYC or Acol, and only have Blackwood or Roman Key Blackwood on your convention card, what do you think is the best or right auction to get to 6♠? (Some of the ones that I saw were not good, just gambling.)

White vs. Red. IMPS. No opponents bidding. West Dealer.

---

[smerriman]

Playing 2/1:

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

[LBengtsson]

smerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:19, said:

Playing 2/1:

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

Yes, I agree it is easy with 2/1 but many players outside USA do not play this system, and many older intermediate players still play SAYC style even if they come from USA. I guess on intermediate/advanced random games I see less than 20% play 2/1.

[smerriman]

With SAYC East jumps to 3♠ (forcing) instead of 2♠, after which you should reach the same spot.

[johnu]

I'm having difficulties imagining an auction that doesn't end up in at least 6♠. Assuming the pair plays RKC, then they should be able to stop in 6♠. Without RKC, I suppose they might end up in 7♠.

Maybe they might stop in game if East responds 1NT instead of 2♦ since this is an intermediate/advanced game. Otherwise, it is 100% West's problem for not reaching slam unless East goes completely off the rails.

[mw64ahw]

smerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:19, said:

Playing 2/1:

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠

seems a reasonable start. West is going to be going to slam for any sequence from then on - whether a beginner bids a direct 4N, or you go through a lengthy control bidding sequence, you're going to eventually find you're missing the Q and stop at 6 in all cases.

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2♦ in 2/1?

[apollo1201]

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

[DavidKok]

mw64ahw, on 2022-February-15, 21:17, said:

I don't disagree with the auction, but how many hcp do you need to bid 2♦ in 2/1?

An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

apollo1201, on 2022-February-16, 00:56, said:

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.

[AL78]

smerriman, on 2022-February-15, 18:43, said:

With SAYC East jumps to 3♠ (forcing) instead of 2♠, after which you should reach the same spot.

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2022-February-16, 02:48, said:

An opening hand, though be wary bidding 2/1 with shapely 10-point hands since partner likely also has a shapely minimum with the shape going in the other direction. This hand more than qualifies. In 2/1 the alternatives are also not good, you'd have to bid 1NT (either forcing or semiforcing) after which partner will never play you for this great hand.

I would never double jump like that in 2/1. Also a jump should show a hand extremely unsuitable for slam, not just any HCP minimum. With two aces, room to set up the diamond suit and ruffing value this hand will make a very good dummy in slam.

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.

[mw64ahw]

AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Given 2♠ can be invitational, why not have 3♠ as SI, but I guess it depends which way round you want to play.

[johnu]

apollo1201, on 2022-February-16, 00:56, said:

Without gadget at all

1S - 2D
2H - 4S (minimum with fit)
6S (partner should have enough stuff among SQ, CA, DA, DK and an extra Q or two but I can’t ask w/o gadget such as RKCB)

Not addressing the 4♠ rebid by responder, surely you can bid regular 4NT Blackwood, and sign off in 5♠ if you are missing 2 aces.

[DavidKok]

mw64ahw, on 2022-February-16, 04:10, said:

For me SAYC is 11+ and 2/1 13+ hcp shaving a point off in certain circumstances. In this case 12+ is justified given the 8 card fit. In general though do you want to arrive at 3NT after a GF on a misfit with less than 24hcp between you.

I would make the double-jump in this case; it describes the strength and support opposite a minimum opener. If partner has the strength to move ahead as in this case then I move ahead.

Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4♠ with something like ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦KQJxx, ♣KJx, but not many other hands.

[helene_t]

AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

In Acol this is usually played as invitational, but in SAYC, 2♦ already showed a hand that at least wants to invite opposite a 12-14 bal (in some interpretations of SAYC it even promises a GF opposite a 12-14 bal), so even if 3♠ just shows a tiny bit of extras, it must be GF.

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2022-February-16, 02:59, said:

3♠ is forcing? I've always understood (playing Acol) that 3♠ here is invitational, and to force to game you go through FSF.

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.
And even in Acol, it should be forcing.

[AL78]

P_Marlowe, on 2022-February-16, 05:23, said:

Facing a 2/1 response, it is forcing, the 3S bid showes 15+, the 2/1 showes 10+. hence the partnership has 25+.
And even in Acol, it should be forcing.

Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♠

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.

[Stephen Tu]

In SA the jump preference by responder after a 2/1 has always been GF. SA has historically always had a lot more forcing sequences than Acol.

Invitational spade raises in SA are either jump raise immediately (1s-3s) once limit raises were adopted (in ancient times jump raise was forcing), or just give a 2/1 followed by a non-jump preference. Or go through 1nt forcing if that is available.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2022-February-16, 04:48, said:

Both of these are mistakes. The first line is too much bean counting. In 2/1 you have to choose between showing a limited hand with 1NT (or a jump to 3m if appropriate), or starting a GF. Hands with ~12 HCP have to be judged on their own merits, but frequently I'd rather overbid and have a comfortable 2/1 auction than underbid and have to catch up for multiple rounds. Also, if you have a bit of shape, 24 HCP 3NT bids have a tendency of making (at least a sufficiently large percentage of the time). It is also not writ in stone that partner has a minimum. Meanwhile you need to move heaven and earth to get to game with a balanced 13 opposite your 1NT bid - it's just poor odds.

The double jump is ridiculous, we have an excellent hand for slam and we're eating two levels of bidding space. Partner doesn't even know our shape yet! I would consider jumping to 4♠ with something like ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦KQJxx, ♣KJx, but not many other hands.

You have to have some guidelines to start and then adjust according to experience, but with 24 combined hcp I think the probability of a 3NT game slips below 50℅. When you have say a running suit where extra tricks can be counted then experience shows you can shave the odd point. I struggle with partners that make a light GF with a good suit and we end up in 3NT on a misfit going down when going via 1NT ends in a makeable contract. Even with 24+ there is still the challenge of the play.

As to the double-jump; I find a lot of club players make this bid when gadget-less which is the case here and the smart openers will move on to the slam. With a partner who is comfortable with cue-bidding and knows that a 3♠ rebid by opener is a SI then you can take the slow route.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[pescetom]

AL78, on 2022-February-16, 06:32, said:

Yes I understand that a jump rebid by opener opposite 2/1 is game forcing. I was referring to the auction:

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♠

which I play as invitational in Acol and 5CM without 2/1 GF.

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠

is a minimum 2/1 giving preference. Opener can bid on with a better than minimum hand.

That is what I understood in my limited exposure to Acol. And is the same in Italian 4-card majors.