[Shugart23]

Unfortunately, my wife has retired from bridge. She and I started out with and then evolved from Precision to our version of Modified Italian Canape System, and I haven't played Standard American or 2/1 in at least 15 years. I am preparing to go down to a local club and start playing again but need to review a lot of stuff that I just haven't used since I am most likely not going to be playing MICS or Precision. So today I have two questions.

1) With regard to Puppet Stayman and using it when partner has opened 1NT.....after bidding 2C, it seems that the responses by Opener jump to the three level. Is this correct, and why the jump, if so? Why not just have Opener stay at the two level?


2) My next question has to do with slam bidding. Wife and I used control asking bids (A=2, K=1). Why aren't these more popular with SA or 2/1 ? I've never seen control asking bids used against us, so I am wondering if there is a reason. I'm hoping whatever new partner I end up with, I can sway him or her in that direction, but would this be a mistake ?

[Stephen Tu]

 Shugart23, on 2022-January-23, 13:51, said:

1) With regard to Puppet Stayman and using it when partner has opened 1NT.....after bidding 2C, it seems that the responses by Opener jump to the three level. Is this correct, and why the jump, if so? Why not just have Opener stay at the two level?

If you are using 2c puppet stayman, you still respond 2 level. But what has gained some popularity in expert circles is actually using *two* stayman bids, regular stayman 2c and puppet stayman 3c (in some cases puppet stayman 2nt, though I am not personally familiar with that variant). The responses to the 3c puppet obviously have to be at the 3 level. The 3c puppet stayman is usually played as a "low information" variety for concealment purposes, where opener's 3d only denies 5 cd majors (may or may not have 4), and responder bids the major they don't hold if they have a 4 cd major. Responder with both majors or slam ambitions or < GF utilizes 2c normally.

Quote

2) My next question has to do with slam bidding. Wife and I used control asking bids (A=2, K=1). Why aren't these more popular with SA or 2/1 ? I've never seen control asking bids used against us, so I am wondering if there is a reason. I'm hoping whatever new partner I end up with, I can sway him or her in that direction, but would this be a mistake ?

You need a lot of the lower levels to find how well the suits fit and establish overall strength. Cue bidding and RKC generally can generally find out about controls later. Some sort of lower level control ask might work after suit agreement but I've never really seen people use this outside of some sort of relay system. One problem is showing number of controls tends to interfere with showing control location which is sometimes more important. 2/1 bidders have enough problems just narrowing down overall strength with the wide range of both opener and responder.

Garozzo I think eventually came to believe that low level control showing was a mistake, and shape should be shown first.

[DavidKok]

1) I don't think people jump over Puppet Stayman. In fact, most people play 1NT-2♣ as regular Stayman, and some pairs use 1NT-3♣ (or 1NT-2NT) as Puppet Stayman. Maybe this is what happened to you? If the auction really was 1NT-2♣; 3M you were probably just facing an inexperienced pair.

2) In dialogue bidding (as in SA or 2/1) there are a few smaller points that make control asking bids not as valuable. Usually there isn't a clearly defined captain(/asker) on the auction, and neither side is limited. Also 2/1 and SA typically need more bidding space to establish a game force and slam try than strong club systems do¹. Both of these imply that, by the time you can safely ask for controls, you tend to be at the risk of exceeding your safety level. That being said I think it's also at least partially a historical coincidence, so if you and your partner are willing to play control asking bids I'm sure you can find a way to make them work in a dialogue bidding context.

¹Terms and conditions may apply.

[mycroft]

Agreeing with the above. I used to play 2♣ Puppet very early in my playing days, and the downside of it is losing Garbage Stayman. Bringing it back for GF hands, especially when you can "check for a 5-card major" pretty much all "3-x Majors" GF hands just in case, makes sense to me. I don't do it in any partnerships, but one plays Keri (which has an equivalent to "GF puppet stayman" sequence), and others we don't play enough to not just play "what we have always done". But it does have a point, and in a serious strong NT partnership, I'd probably go for it (under the "I don't care what the 3-level responses are, they never come up, unless you don't agree on them" argument. This one at least comes up.)

[pescetom]

I like to play 2♣ as a true Puppet Stayman, where 2♦ denies a 5-card major and 2♥/2♠ shows one. It's stealthy and if you work on the developments you don't have to give up much except Garbage Crawling, which I was reluctant to lose but in practice has rarely been missed - the ability to takeout to 2♦/2M with a high probability of the former more than makes up for it in practice.

But I suspect OP is overthinking detail if this is really his main worry: he will need to find a partner he will enjoy playing with (already quite a task), agree a basic system and set of conventions to get started with, agree signals and carding, learn respective styles and quirks and so on. The details of one convention are like the cherry on a huge cake, and probably nobody will play control-showing systems. Best of luck in any case.

[Shugart23]

 pescetom, on 2022-January-24, 10:21, said:

I like to play 2♣ as a true Puppet Stayman, where 2♦ denies a 5-card major and 2♥/2♠ shows one. It's stealthy and if you work on the developments you don't have to give up much except Garbage, which I was reluctant to lose but in practice has rarely been missed - the ability to takeout to 2♦/2M with a high probability of the former more than makes up for it in practice.

But I suspect OP is overthinking detail if this is really his main worry: he will need to find a partner he will enjoy playing with (already quite a task), agree a basic system and set of conventions to get started with, agree signals and carding, learn respective styles and quirks and so on. The details of one convention are like the cherry on a huge cake, and probably nobody will play control-showing systems. Best of luck in any case.

Yeah, thanks...It is true I am a bit leery going from a very detailed system with my established long-time partner to a random partner whom I have never met (We have recently moved cross country). I for sure will miss opening 1S with 4 little ones.

I'm really just reviewing system details on bids that I have never or rarely used ...for example , the bids and responses to strong 2C openings I need to review .

Back in the pre-pandemic days when we were playing, when I was 5-3-3-2 with a Major, I made the decision to ALWAYS open this hand 1NT (provided I had the point count). I decided it was better to be consistent rather than sometimes open 1M and other times open 1NT. Our NT range however was either 10-13 or 13-15 so it was easy to do.

I'm not sure this same treatment would be good with a NT range of 15-17 and a 1M range of 12-21. . I suppose as an alternative thought, one could say we NEVER open 1NT with a 5 card Major and hence would never need Puppet.

I'd be interested in any one's thoughts on ALWAYS or NEVER opening 1NT with a 5 card Major in SA or 2/1 ---in Matchpoint

[pescetom]

 Shugart23, on 2022-January-24, 12:15, said:

Yeah, thanks...It is true I am a bit leery going from a very detailed system with my established long-time partner to a random partner whom I have never met (We have recently moved cross country). I for sure will miss opening 1S with 4 little ones.

I'm really just reviewing system details on bids that I have never or rarely used ...for example , the bids and responses to strong 2C openings I need to review .

Back in the pre-pandemic days when we were playing, when I was 5-3-3-2 with a Major, I made the decision to ALWAYS open this hand 1NT (provided I had the point count). I decided it was better to be consistent rather than sometimes open 1M and other times open 1NT. Our NT range however was either 10-13 or 13-15 so it was easy to do.

I'm not sure this same treatment would be good with a NT range of 15-17 and a 1M range of 12-21. . I suppose as an alternative thought, one could say we NEVER open 1NT with a 5 card Major and hence would never need Puppet.

I'd be interested in any one's thoughts on ALWAYS or NEVER opening 1NT with a 5 card Major in SA or 2/1 ---in Matchpoint

FWIW I've played both treatments of 5332 with 15-17 and prefer to always (or almost always) open 1NT. It carries a price at MP when much of the field plays in a more comfortable 2M, although you can mitigate that by giving yourself some flexibility based upon suit quality and by upgrading, in particular with spades. An important payoff comes from better definition when you do NOT open 1NT.

As for strong 2 clubs, I really wouldn't worry about it except to learn the related regulations which can be painful. The standard agreements are rubbish and anything different you agree with partner can hardly be worse

But again, you can play decent bridge with NEVER a 5-card major and despite standard strong 2 clubs. The real good luck you need is to find the right partner.

[DavidKok]

 pescetom, on 2022-January-24, 10:21, said:

I like to play 2♣ as a true Puppet Stayman, where 2♦ denies a 5-card major and 2♥/2♠ shows one. It's stealthy and if you work on the developments you don't have to give up much except Garbage, which I was reluctant to lose but in practice has rarely been missed - the ability to takeout to 2♦/2M with a high probability of the former more than makes up for it in practice.

I've delved a bit too deep into systems over a strong 1NT. If you are 1) willing to give up Garbage/Crawling Stayman and 2) fine with playing something non-standard, I think there are significantly stronger options than Puppet. By contrast, playing 2NT or 3♣ as GF Puppet doesn't require making (m)any changes to your system.

 Shugart23, on 2022-January-24, 12:15, said:

I'd be interested in any one's thoughts on ALWAYS or NEVER opening 1NT with a 5 card Major in SA or 2/1 ---in Matchpoint

If you play Gazzilli or Bart/Lisa over 1M-1NT there is enough space to clarify that you have a strong balanced hand, which in my opinion tips it in favour of opening 1M by default (though in my regular partnership we make an exception for anemic suits - anything weaker than K9xxx, basically). Without these tools it is difficult to find a rebid, and I would open 1NT by default (although even then I'd make some exceptions and pretend the hand is 5422 or 5431 depending on the exact hand).

[johnu]

 mycroft, on 2022-January-24, 09:10, said:

Agreeing with the above. I used to play 2♣ Puppet very early in my playing days, and the downside of it is losing Garbage Stayman.

Puppet Stayman has its own version of Garbage Stayman. If you have 5+ diamonds and 2+ in both majors, you can bid 2♣ and pass any response with a weak hand. You will end up in at least a 5-2 fit.

[pescetom]

 johnu, on 2022-January-24, 20:19, said:

Puppet Stayman has its own version of Garbage Stayman. If you have 5+ diamonds and 2+ in both majors, you can bid 2♣ and pass any response with a weak hand. You will end up in at least a 5-2 fit.

Exactly, takeout to 2♦/2M. FWIW I find this of more frequent concrete use than Garbage with 4-card Stayman, which is rarely a clear cut choice and can play havoc with partner confidence if it goes pear shaped.

[in a previous post I accidentally wrote about 'giving up Garbage', but meant 'giving up Crawling'].