[Al_U_Card]

Quote

No it means they have a good hand not a trump stack

It doesn't mean anything other than he wants to penalize 4S and he feels his hand is worth 4 sure tricks.......he has 4NT for takeout if he wanted to hear from you.

[cherdano]

Al_U_Card, on Jun 16 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid? Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double.

US standard is X=takeout, and 4NT = 2-suited takeout.

Arend

[Blofeld]

Surely the normal meaning for 4NT over 4♠ is showing two places to play and forcibly denying any interest in penalising them?

I would automatically assume that the double of 4♠ was takeout. This is possibly idealistic ... I believe that the double should be takeout, so I treat it as such. I want to encourage people to play it as such and in particular I really don't want to punish a partner who has bid it as takeout.

---

While I'd bid 4♠ on the hand Mark posted, I'm not sure that I'd follow Marlowe's lead in bidding 5♣ with the majors reversed. There I would at least be sorely tempted to pass. I'm not sure which the better action is.

[JSilver]

Al_U_Card, on Jun 16 2005, 05:37 PM, said:

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid? 

This is also my understanding. I don't expect partner to have a trump stack--rather a balanced hand with 4-6 quick tricks.

"No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double. "

However, I'd consider pulling it if I had a long suit and no defense, since some of his tricks may not cash and we might be able to make 5 of my suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Blofeld, on Jun 16 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

Surely the normal meaning for 4NT over 4♠ is showing two places to play and forcibly denying any interest in penalising them?

I would automatically assume that the double of 4♠ was takeout. This is possibly idealistic ... I believe that the double should be takeout, so I treat it as such. I want to encourage people to play it as such and in particular I really don't want to punish a partner who has bid it as takeout.

---

While I'd bid 4♠ on the hand Mark posted, I'm not sure that I'd follow Marlowe's lead in bidding 5♣ with the majors reversed. There I would at least be sorely tempted to pass. I'm not sure which the better action is.

Hi,

Pass may well be best, especially if playing
MP, but with no defence and a 6 card suit,
I run, I am a chicken.

Marlowe

[epeeist]

Deanrover, on Jun 15 2005, 10:46 PM, said:

RHO opens 4♠, which gets passed around to your p who doubles. This is an individual tournament and you have never played with your p before. What factors govern whether you take his bid for t/o or for pens?

Since you asked what factors, I'll list them (not necessarily in order):

1. My hand.

2. Scoring and vulnerability. Are we vulnerable at IMPs, important not to miss out on possible game, so may treat as t/o, etc. What are the likely/possible scores if I bid or pass? If I bid and p's bid was for penalty, how much do I think we'll lose; if I pass and p's bid was for t/o how much do I think we'll lose?

3. Partner's and opponents' profiles (i.e. based on what I think skills are, do I think opponent made the bid expecting to make it or as a sacrifice, what does partner say skill is, etc.). For instance, if partner rates him or herself as "novice" I'll assume the double is for penalties.

I'm sure there are other factors, like the mood I'm in...

[Al_U_Card]

Quote

However, I'd consider pulling it if I had a long suit and no defense, since some of his tricks may not cash and we might be able to make 5 of my suit.

I agree. Like you would pull any of pard's penalty doubles.....if you had a good reason and reasonable expectations of improvement....

Also, while 4NT is takeout, it can be 2 suited and when you bid 5D pard will bid 5H with the H and C 2-suiter. Trump stacks are not an issue here unless there has been a psyche and that explains itself.

[Al_U_Card]

cherdano, on Jun 16 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Jun 16 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid?  Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double.

US standard is X=takeout, and 4NT = 2-suited takeout.

Arend

US means you and your partner's?....lol Guess there is so much room for discussion on any sequence that playing without solid partnership agreements gets closer to Russian Roulette all the time

[cherdano]

Al_U_Card, on Jun 16 2005, 08:36 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jun 16 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Jun 16 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

Is not DBL for penalty and 4NT is take out of a 4S opening bid?  Where is the confusion? No matter what you have, pard has spoken and you don't need to contribute any tricks to his penalty double.

US standard is X=takeout, and 4NT = 2-suited takeout.

Arend

US means you and your partner's?....lol Guess there is so much room for discussion on any sequence that playing without solid partnership agreements gets closer to Russian Roulette all the time

Maybe I am not getting your joke, but I meant US as in USA. Anyway, if you pick randomly two North American experts, I would give you a good rate on betting that they would not misunderstand each other on this without a particular partnership agreement.

Arend

[luke warm]

mr1303, on Jun 16 2005, 09:07 AM, said:

YOu hold:

QTxx
void
xxx
Txxxxx

bidding goes:

(4H) X (P) to you

should you pass, and hope partner has a good enough hand to beat it, or take it out?

i'd never ever pass the double *if* we had an understanding that it's for takeout.. since i've never, or can't ever remember, playing with anyone who'd double here for any reason other than takeout, i'd bid 4s

[Blofeld]

Marlowe: It's been pointed out to me that I may be misunderstanding you. I had imagined just reversing the majors in your hand. If the 4♥ bid is also being changed to 4♠ then I'm bidding 5♣ in an instant!

[Al_U_Card]

Of course, 4H -dbl- is for takeout.......And the US comment was a joke.

[Blofeld]

Al U Card: why is it obvious that a double of 4♥ is takeout, but a double of 4♠ is penalties? They're one bid apart. Is a double of 5♣ also penalties in your style?

[P_Marlowe]

Blofeld, on Jun 17 2005, 11:26 AM, said:

Al U Card: why is it obvious that a double of 4♥ is takeout, but a double of 4♠ is penalties? They're one bid apart. Is a double of 5♣ also penalties in your style?

Hi,

it is a common style, to play a double of 4H as takeout
and a double of 4S as penalty, or more precisie as "optional",
showing "convertable" values, but not everyone plays it this way.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Al_U_Card]

Blofeld, on Jun 17 2005, 11:26 AM, said:

Al U Card: why is it obvious that a double of 4♥ is takeout, but a double of 4♠ is penalties? They're one bid apart. Is a double of 5♣ also penalties in your style?

Sorry, this is the way that I learned standard american bidding from an excellent partner (may she rest in peace) in the late 80's after having played "kitchen bridge" (please read insanely bad bridge) for 20 years. A double of 4H allows for the doubler to hold a good hand with 4S cards. He would bid 4NT for takeout but basically denying Spades.

The double of 4S has to be penalty because the 4NT bid is available for takeout without the loss of bidding space.

[Deanrover]

My hand was

♠
♥ T874
♦ AT43
♣ A9762

Vul all white.

Does this change anything?

[inquiry]

Deanrover, on Jun 17 2005, 02:38 PM, said:

My hand was

♠
♥ T874
♦ AT43
♣ A9762

Vul all white.

Does this change anything?

No... see my two post in this thread... but particularily this one... http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=73714. If you think your partner has to be long in spades because you are void, think again.

Again, in an individual, making an "assumption" about what a preempt is or what a double means is fraught with danger. I try to set very simple rules in the first 30 seconds of an individual. Simple SAYC, all doubles for takeout at 2S or lower, higher doubles penatly, VERY SOUND PREEMPTS.

Each rule has a reason. There is a special kind of hell for people playing in an indivdual who doesn't try to bring a small amount of order and agreement to doubles and preempts. There is little reason to preempt in individuals, your opponents will not have a clue what is going on most time anyway when it is their hand. And there is good reason to agree all doubles above soemthing are penalty... because people overbid in individuals and without some VERY simple agreement like this, confusion reigns. Better a crappy agreement like this that is easily understood than no agreement.

So for me, with this hand, I know 4Sx is penalty... i agreed on it before we bid the first hand. With my normal partners, with this hand, I would bid 4NT, find a place to play partner, since that double would be takeout.. and when I am void in their suit, I will takeout.

[mike777]

This seems to be a decades old debate does one x or bid 4nt takeout with a void in spades in direct seat and some opening hand with 0445. I takeout with 4nt as I Hate to make a takeout x with a void, now partner can at least trust I mean what I say when I X on other hands.

My guess is alot of MP winners will bid X so willing to listen.