[tkass]

bidding proceed:

south pass west 1♦, north dbl, east pass , south 3♠


my intention was to show a hand better than 2sp and not enuff value to bid a game.

my hand was:♠ A-q-x-x ♥ stiff ♦ xxxx and ♣ Axxx

pard pass playing me for a preempt style hand, he had a good 14 and sing di

what is the best treatment here and why

a) around 11 invitation 4 cards
preempt
c) invit with 5 or more cards
d) other

tkass

[Walddk]

3♠ is not a pre-empt. They don't exist after partner's take-out double. If you have nothing you respond 1♠ (roughly 0-8), if you have 9-12 you bid 2♠, and if you are very close to an opener yourself, you go for 3♠. That will often show a 5-card suit.

I don't think 3♠ is unreasonable with your hand, although some would leap to game. This is a bit too aggressive to me, since I don't know if we have an 8-card fit or not. Partner could be 3-4-1-5 or 3-4-2-4 as examples.

As I understand it, your partner had 14 hcp with 4-card support and a singleton diamond. If that is correct, he should have raised. His hand is worth about 17 points once you have found a fit.

Roland

[PriorKnowledge]

I disagree. Most play the dbl/triple jump is preemptive. With game-force values, q-bid opener's suit. This shows either a game-force hand or invitational hand with both majors.

In any case, I don't see the point of having a bid that is better than 10, but less than a game force. That does not make sense.

10 + stiff is certainly close enough to game force. So I would q-bid 2D.

If you feel it is not a game-force, then just jump to 2S. If dbler is min, dbler passes, with plenty dbler bids 4S. With question, dbler can bid 3S and then you could bid 4S.

[HeartA]

PriorKnowledge, on Jun 15 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

I disagree. Most play the dbl/triple jump is preemptive. With game-force values,  q-bid opener's suit. This shows either a game-force hand or invitational hand with both majors.

In any case, I don't see the point of having a bid that is better than 10, but less than a game force. That does not make sense.

10 + stiff is certainly close enough to game force. So I would q-bid 2D.

If you feel it is not a game-force, then just jump to 2S. If dbler is min, dbler passes, with plenty dbler bids 4S. With question, dbler can bid 3S and then you could bid 4S.

Agree completely.

3S would show a hand of 6+ (more likely 7) ♠ with at most 6 HCP, similar to a WJS hand.

[Fluffy]

3♠ is an invitational with 5 card suit, used to distinguish between 4 card invitational and 5 card invitational.

[P_Marlowe]

Standard meaning for the 3S bid is, that it shows inviational
values, around 10-12HCP.
Depending on your takeout style, it may or may not promise
5 cards, while the jump to 2S shows only 4 cards.
Playing this agreement, the HCP strength needed to jumb to
2S respective to 3S is the same.

With your given hand, I would not jumb to game, especially
because you are a passed hand and partner could be
stretching (*), i.e. he may have a fewer values for his
takeout contra compared to the values, he would hold when
sitting in 2nd seat.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*) This may not be a popular style, but at least for me it works.
=> Playing this style even a jumb to 2S may be enough.

[pclayton]

Wow - maybe these are intercontinental differences but I've never heard of the jump as showing an invitiational hand with 5 pieces.

But then again I don't play takeout doubles either .

[the hog]

pclayton, on Jun 16 2005, 11:42 AM, said:

Wow - maybe these are intercontinental differences but I've never heard of the jump as showing an invitiational hand with 5 pieces.

But then again I don't play takeout doubles either .

Perhaps intercontinental, perhaps not. I agree Phil, here a jump would be made on a decent 6+ suit along the lines of KQ to 6, perhaps QJT to 6 and not much else.

[EricK]

I think this thread shows that there is no such thing as "standard" in this position!

Much depends on what a first round take-out double shows.

For those people who play that is should like something like a 12 point (or stronger) 4414 hand, then responder can often choose the correct trump suit straight away and is only looking for level. For these people jumps don't need to show extra length, and single jumps can be made on weaker hands (eg 7-9 points)

If the double could be made on a wider variety of hands (eg 3325 or 3334 or 2434 hands) then responder has to be more cautious in choosing the strain, so immediate jumps need to show extra length, and strong hands with no have to go via a cue-bid, and single jumps have to be a little bit stronger (eg 9-11) points.

Eric

[FrancesHinden]

Indeed, there is no such thing as standard.

I've never heard of this bid as pre-emptive - who exactly is it you want to pre-empt against in this auction?.

The normal meaning round 'ere is that it is strongly invitational, at least 5 cards often 6. While I would bid 2S on KQxx xx xxx Axxx, I would bid 3S on KQxxxx xx xxx Kx so it's not a difference in high cards, more a difference in hand type. Those who play 3S as pre-emptive would probably just bid game on the second hand, but having it as invitational allows you to stay out of game when it isn't making.

I do know of at least one pair who play this sequence as forcing, setting the suit bid as trumps. They claim the invitational hand is rare, the pre-empt is pointless, but that slam bidding after a take-out double is difficult and this helps.

With only 4 trumps I wouldn't make a double jump, I would cue bid on your sample hand.

[PriorKnowledge]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 16 2005, 05:12 AM, said:

Indeed, there is no such thing as standard.

I've never heard of this bid as pre-emptive - who exactly is it you want to pre-empt against in this auction?

One expert I know called certain bids, "Standard Expert", implying that experts have a secret society that distributes this knowledge among them unknown to the average player.

Honestly: The interpretation of double or triple jump advances to takeout doubles as preemptive is quite commonly played by most experts. Ask them. Go to a regional or national tournament, walk up to a renown expert and ask. They will usually be happy to answer questions like this.

The reason to use this bid as preemptive is quite simple. You already have a way to show a strong hand: Q-bid and bid your suit. You don't have a way to show a pre-emptive hand.

And you do need to be preemptive. ALWAYS. Whenever you have a 9-card fit on a non-game hand, get to the 3-level fast. This is a LOTT bid. You know you belong at the 3-level. Make it hard for the opps. This is why experts play that a jump raise to 3 of overcaller's suit is preemptive and a q-bid is a game-invite+ raise.

But when you have game-forcing strength, take it slow. Find out your best final contract. Make sure partner knows you are strong in case the opps interfere so you can make the right decision whether to double or bid on.

[mikestar]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 16 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

Indeed, there is no such thing as standard.

I've never heard of this bid as pre-emptive - who exactly is it you want to pre-empt against in this auction?.

The normal meaning round 'ere is that it is strongly invitational, at least 5 cards often 6. While I would bid 2S on KQxx xx xxx Axxx, I would bid 3S on KQxxxx xx xxx Kx so it's not a difference in high cards, more a difference in hand type. Those who play 3S as pre-emptive would probably just bid game on the second hand, but having it as invitational allows you to stay out of game when it isn't making.

I do know of at least one pair who play this sequence as forcing, setting the suit bid as trumps. They claim the invitational hand is rare, the pre-empt is pointless, but that slam bidding after a take-out double is difficult and this helps.

With only 4 trumps I wouldn't make a double jump, I would cue bid on your sample hand.

The general rule in Standard American Bidding (dataing back to Culbertson's time) is that double or higher jumps in a new suit are preemptive unless the partnership defines them otherwise.

Using 3♠ here to distinguish 4 and 5 card jump responses has merit and may be more valuable than a preempt, but it also may not be. After all, you might have a weak hand with long spades, partner might have a minimum double and opener might have a rock.

Robson Segal classify (1♦)-X-(P) as a potentially contested auction where we must be prepared for enemy competition.

The definition of an uncontested auction is:
1) Both opponents have passed after the opening bid, or
2) One opponent has passed after the opening bid and the other has made a limit bid.

So if you have an auction of, say 1♦-(P)-1♠-(P) it is fairly safe to define the bidding from this point in terms of construcive efficiency rather than preparing for competition.

In the aution at hand, it is necessary to prepare for competition and preempts make sense--this doesn't necessarily mean 3S should be preemptive, you have to consider the tradeoffs, but that playing it preemptive makes sense, while playing 1♦-(P)-1♠-(P)-4♣ as preemptive does not make sense.

[FrancesHinden]

PriorKnowledge, on Jun 16 2005, 09:09 AM, said:

Honestly: The interpretation of double or triple jump advances to takeout doubles as preemptive is quite commonly played by most experts. Ask them. Go to a regional or national tournament, walk up to a renown expert and ask. They will usually be happy to answer questions like this.

As stated, I am absolutely certain what you have written here is untrue. It might be true - I don't know - if you insert "American" between "most" and "experts". Unlike you I don't pretend to be able to speak for the worldwide community of experts, but I do know what is common practice (both expert and non-expert) in the tournaments where I regularly play.

p.s. do you mean to come across quite as patronising as your post reads?

[cherdano]

PriorKnowledge, on Jun 16 2005, 03:09 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jun 16 2005, 05:12 AM, said:

Indeed, there is no such thing as standard.

I've never heard of this bid as pre-emptive - who exactly is it you want to pre-empt against in this auction?

One expert I know called certain bids, "Standard Expert", implying that experts have a secret society that distributes this knowledge among them unknown to the average player.

Honestly: The interpretation of double or triple jump advances to takeout doubles as preemptive is quite commonly played by most experts. Ask them. Go to a regional or national tournament, walk up to a renown expert and ask. They will usually be happy to answer questions like this.

Or you could just ask this questions in the forum, and some nice experts will tell you that they have never heard of this jump as preemptive

(To clarify -- I am not being ironic here, Frances Hinden IS an expert by the standard of having won national tournaments.)

In fact, I suspect if Justin told us the hands with which he would "preempt" with 3S on this auction, we could as well agree on calling them "invitational with distribution".

Arend

[mikestar]

As an aside, in a regular partnership where we frequently doubled for takeout with only three cards in an unbid major, we had the agreement that doubler would always raise 1M to 2M with four cards even if dead minimum, and advancer's jump to 2M promised 5.

[FrancesHinden]

cherdano, on Jun 16 2005, 09:24 AM, said:

In fact, I suspect if Justin told us the hands with which he would "preempt" with 3S on this auction, we could as well agree on calling them "invitational with distribution".

Possibly true. I don't really see 2S as a 4-card invite and 3S as a 5-card invite as the only way of distinguishing between the two calls.

2S says "I have around 8-10 HCP, 4 or 5 spades, are you interested in a game bid on power?"

3S says "I have a load of spades and a few high cards, are you interested in a light HCP game bid on trumps & controls?"

A pre-emptive 3S bid says "please pass unless you have a very unusual take-out double".

The position isn't quite the same as when you raise an overcall, as partner's spade length is not very well defined. It can pay to be cautious when RHO doesn't act over the double, because partner may transpire to have a strong hand with an atypical shape and it turns out you are pre-empting him.

[Al_U_Card]

I prefer the 3S showing an invitational hand (of whatever suit quality, length or total hcp). This way, pard can continue the bidding as appropriate. My question concerns the value of responder's hand with a stiff in one of the doubler's known suits and only 4 trumps. I would only bid 2S with this questionable hand and if pard raises (4 trumps and a good 14+) or bids a new suit, I would accept the game try.

[FrancesHinden]

mikestar, on Jun 16 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

As an aside, in a regular partnership where we frequently doubled for takeout with only three cards in an unbid major, we had the agreement that doubler would always raise 1M to 2M with four cards even if dead minimum, and advancer's jump to 2M promised 5.

I've seen pick-up partnerships have an accident in the sequence

(1x) x (P) 1S
(P) 2S

which traditionally shows a good hand (i.e. it's invitational opposite a hand that could only bid 1S the previous round). Some people prefer to play that the raise to 2S is just competitive with 4-card support - as you say, particularly when the double is often not "shape classical".

[PriorKnowledge]

I was going to put "American" in the sentence, because I thought it presumptuous of me as I don't know enough expert Europeans. But the sentence started to get real complicated and confusing.

Do all American experts play it this way? Probably not. Some have their own private methods.

Do all American experts even agree that this is "commonly played among experts". Again probably not. But I think that most experts who were not regular partners, who got a game together, would play it this way.

Am I too arrogant? Probably. From my early years as a bridge teacher and director. I try to tone it down, but sometimes forget. At least I am quick to admit when I am wrong, which is sadly occuring with increased frequency.