[johnu]

 kenberg, on 2021-December-29, 20:02, said:

If someone insists he has a right to reject the vaccine and to not wear a mask, perhaps that is so. He does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. He can stay home, no vaccine, no mask, no contact with anyone.

I see little difference between somebody who deliberately goes out in public knowing they are infected with Covid and not wearing a mask, and those who spread anti-vax, anti-mask, pro-Covid Qonspiracy theories to their fellow weak minded stooges.

[Winstonm]

I think John has a point as the mass rejection of vaccines is based in large part on group identity - these are not individuals saying I have the right ; they are half lemmings half parrot marching toward the ledge while claiming it is “our” right.

[kenberg]

Sure. But the question is: What to do?
A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.
So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

[johnu]

 kenberg, on 2021-December-30, 14:20, said:

Sure. But the question is: What to do?
A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.
So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

We need to fund and build plenty of road signs pointing to the nearest seaside cliffs.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2021-December-30, 14:20, said:

Sure. But the question is: What to do?
A lemming today will be a lemming tomorrow.
So give up on trying to change them, just bottle them up somewhere.

Send them on an all expense paid vacation to Guyana and cross our fingers that another Jim Jones is the head lemming?

On a serious note I think we need to ask out loud those we interact with if they are vaccinated - if they are not we should loudly refuse to do business with them and loudly explain why that is our decision

[pilowsky]

The game has changed in Australia.
It looks like Omicron is now endemic with an estimated 1 in 5-10 positivity rate.
At this level of infectivity - the unvaccinated are on their own and no longer the problem for the vaccinated.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that the risk of serious illness is low and death very low.
I haven't seen actual data yet but the politicians here are now redefining a close contact as a person who has been in the same room as a confirmed case for more than 4 hours!

At the same time our Education Minister has decided not to fund 6 competitively awarded grants because he knows better.

[johnu]

 pilowsky, on 2021-December-30, 23:53, said:

The game has changed in Australia.
It looks like Omicron is now endemic with an estimated 1 in 5-10 positivity rate.
At this level of infectivity - the unvaccinated are on their own and no longer the problem for the vaccinated.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that the risk of serious illness is low and death very low.

I just saw an R0 estimate for Omicron as 10, while Delta was 7 and the original strain was ~2.

While serious illness and death from Omicron appears to be less than Delta, the sheer numbers of people getting infected means that hospitals are being flooded with mostly unvaccinated anti-vaxxers, and deaths are piling up. In the US, there are still deaths per day in the 1500 range after bottoming out in the 200 range in early summer 2021.

[pilowsky]

 johnu, on 2021-December-31, 01:14, said:

I just saw an R0 estimate for Omicron as 10, while Delta was 7 and the original strain was ~2.

While serious illness and death from Omicron appears to be less than Delta, the sheer numbers of people getting infected means that hospitals are being flooded with mostly unvaccinated anti-vaxxers, and deaths are piling up. In the US, there are still deaths per day in the 1500 range after bottoming out in the 200 range in early summer 2021.

I've read the same thing.
Even though disease severity is less the numbers are so vast that the tail of the severity distribution that requires hospitalisation is very large - especially if you have no vaccination.


I don't know why "crazy" is so popular in the world currently.
Historically it seems to happen when a large portion of the population is disaffected for some reason.
In Australia we would say they aren't getting "a fair suck of the sav." (I'll leave you to google that one).
That everyone gets a fair suck of the sav. in Australia - or at least feels that they are - is the main reason for the typically high compliance with government directives.
In spite of the very high level of anti-authoritarianism in Australia.

Ito et al said:

The Omicron variant of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) has become widespread across the world in a flashing manner. As of December 7, 2021, a total of 758 Omicron cases were confirmed in Denmark. Using the nucleotide sequences of the Delta and Omicron variants registered from Denmark in the GISAID database, we found that the effective (instantaneous) reproduction number of Omicron is 3.19 (95%CI 2.82-3.61) times greater than that of Delta under the same epidemiological conditions. https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/34967453/

I'm still waiting to see published data about disease severity in unvaccinated vs the various vaccination protocols. No doubt this will be available soon.

[thepossum]

As far as I can understand from WHO definitions endemicity means the end of pandemicity

Slightly confused - I didn't realise it was just a mathematical graph thing

But seemingly pandemonium still rules

EDIT Oops. To me horror I realise yet again I have been dragged into the Parade of Morons thread

[Winstonm]

Quote

California Deputy DA Who Fought Vaccine Mandate Dies Abruptly After Falling Ill With COVID at Age 46

Quote

A deputy district attorney and up-and-coming Republican political star in California’s Orange County has died abruptly after telling friends she contracted COVID-19.

Kelly Ernby, a presumed candidate for the state Assembly in 2022, was only 46 years old. According to the Los Angeles Times, she fell ill shortly after speaking out against vaccine mandates at a rally organized by Turning Point USA on Dec. 4.

It's beginning to look like the new Confederate States will need a bigger cemetery.

[johnu]

 Winstonm, on 2022-January-04, 17:27, said:

It's beginning to look like the new Confederate States will need a bigger cemetery.

I have it on good authority that this "falling" star QOP politician will be returning, although she will be moving to Dallas to join JFK and JFK Jr when they return, so no need for more cemetery plots.

[barmar]

It should be noted that it's not inconsistent to be in favor of vaccines while against vaccine mandates. I'll bet most of the politicians who protest mandates are fully vaccinated, and may even recommend it (Trump recently came out in favor of vaccination). They just think that mandates are government overreach and invasion of personal privacy. It's poor public policy, because we can't solve a pandemic by leaving it up to everyone's personal decisions, especially when they're so much disinformation and politicization of the issue, but it's a common political philosophy.

However, Ernby also wasn't vaccinated according to https://www.ocregist...-complications/

[mikeh]

 barmar, on 2022-January-06, 11:11, said:

It should be noted that it's not inconsistent to be in favor of vaccines while against vaccine mandates. I'll bet most of the politicians who protest mandates are fully vaccinated, and may even recommend it (Trump recently came out in favor of vaccination). They just think that mandates are government overreach and invasion of personal privacy. It's poor public policy, because we can't solve a pandemic by leaving it up to everyone's personal decisions, especially when they're so much disinformation and politicization of the issue, but it's a common political philosophy.

However, Ernby also wasn't vaccinated according to https://www.ocregist...-complications/

I’m sure you’re correct about some but my impression is that most anti-mandate politicians are simply hypocrites, pandering to their base. They claim to be about freedom, but a cursory knowledge of history and reality makes a mockery of most of their arguments.

In the military….which most right wing politicians fetishize (in fairness, most politicians of all stripes, especially in the US, fetishize their military)….all recruits are vaccinated multiple times with no choice given. School kids used to be routinely vaccinated against polio, etc.

[mycroft]

To me, the role of the state is to do the things that are in everybody's best interest, but not necessarily in every *individual's* best interest.

Which is why libertarians blow my mind, Objectivists look like active saboteurs, and I will never be a post-1980 (and definitely not a post-2000) Republican (were I American. Having said that I referred to my province's leader as Gov. Greg Kenney yesterday; context should be obvious [*]).

I also realize that I am an idealist to such an extent that people slightly to the right of the communists NDP think I'm hopelessly deluded. But I'd rather believe in the best and be disappointed than join the race to the bottom for a little temporary advantage.

Having said that, vaccine mandates are right up there with speed limits, helmet and seatbelt laws, and bans on baby walkers. It's a good thing, but since the best resolution for an individual is "everybody else does it so I don't have to", it has to be imposed. And the only real imposition with true effect is the government.

[*] if it's not, I have referred to Alberta many times in the past as "extremely north Texas". I will admit, comparing Kenney to Abbott is unfair to Abbott. In the same way that dandelions are unfairly compared to kudzu, of course.

[kenberg]

Baby walkers? I hadn't realized that the world had come around to my way of thinking. My kids were born in 61 and 67 but I figured kids could crawl when they were ready to crawl, walk when they were ready to walk, and climb when they were ready to climb. No need to rush them into anything. Seemed to work out fine.

[pescetom]

 kenberg, on 2022-January-06, 13:34, said:

Baby walkers? I hadn't realized that the world had come around to my way of thinking. My kids were born in 61 and 67 but I figured kids could crawl when they were ready to crawl, walk when they were ready to walk, and climb when they were ready to climb. No need to rush them into anything. Seemed to work out fine.

I had to google it, and I'm a parent.

[Winstonm]

 mycroft, on 2022-January-06, 12:07, said:

To me, the role of the state is to do the things that are in everybody's best interest, but not necessarily in every *individual's* best interest.

Which is why libertarians blow my mind, Objectivists look like active saboteurs, and I will never be a post-1980 (and definitely not a post-2000) Republican (were I American. Having said that I referred to my province's leader as Gov. Greg Kenney yesterday; context should be obvious [*]).

I also realize that I am an idealist to such an extent that people slightly to the right of the communists NDP think I'm hopelessly deluded. But I'd rather believe in the best and be disappointed than join the race to the bottom for a little temporary advantage.

Having said that, vaccine mandates are right up there with speed limits, helmet and seatbelt laws, and bans on baby walkers. It's a good thing, but since the best resolution for an individual is "everybody else does it so I don't have to", it has to be imposed. And the only real imposition with true effect is the government.

[*] if it's not, I have referred to Alberta many times in the past as "extremely north Texas". I will admit, comparing Kenney to Abbott is unfair to Abbott. In the same way that dandelions are unfairly compared to kudzu, of course.

Or you could just watch Star Trek reruns: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. - Mr. Spock.

[Winstonm]

 mikeh, on 2022-January-06, 11:55, said:

I'm sure you're correct about some but my impression is that most anti-mandate politicians are simply hypocrites, pandering to their base. They claim to be about freedom, but a cursory knowledge of history and reality makes a mockery of most of their arguments.

In the military….which most right wing politicians fetishize (in fairness, most politicians of all stripes, especially in the US, fetishize their military)….all recruits are vaccinated multiple times with no choice given. School kids used to be routinely vaccinated against polio, etc.

I read yesterday that 3-5% (I don't remember exactly) of active armed forces in the U.S. have refused vaccinations. I believe they should be immediately shipped out with a dishonorable discharge and lose all military benefits.

Like Hamman said of the Spingold team event: we play hardball here.

[Winstonm]

Another on bites the dust.

Quote

QAnon and anti-vaccine podcaster has died from complications due to COVID-19 after contracting the virus at a conspiracy theory conference that turned into a superspreader event, and where fellow attendees baselessly blamed their illness on an anthrax attack.

Doug Kuzma, 61, from Newport News, Virginia, died on January 3 after being hospitalized 10 days earlier. Kuzma broadcasted on the FROG News podcasting network, which stands for “Fully Rely On God.” Kuzma and his FROG fellow hosts pushed an array of conspiracy theories ranging from QAnon to COVID denial and election fraud lies.

[johnu]

 mikeh, on 2022-January-06, 11:55, said:

In the military….which most right wing politicians fetishize (in fairness, most politicians of all stripes, especially in the US, fetishize their military)

The ultra right fringe politicians who are always ready to put the lives of our military at risk for no particularly good reason are AKA "ChickenSh*tHawks".