[pclayton]

Trixi: methods are not fast arrival so the 3H call just denies ability to make another call.

Ben: Big difference between a 3C raise denying 6 hearts and a 2H rebid not promising 6. Say in your sequence I raise to 3C and pard gives me a 3H preference. Do I play pard for 2 or 3 card support? Is 3N now serious/ friv? Do we have a 7 or 8 card fit? Much confusion.

3C preempts our auction and buries hearts. And it leads to potential confusion later. Better to rebid 2H and allow pard to make a preference bid after his anticipated 2S or 2N and my 3C.Oh and 3C doesn't say anything about club honors or clarify cue bids later.

I retract what I said earlier about 3C. I really dislike it upon reflection.

One of my pards would say, "when you raised my clubs after you rebid hearts, you guaranteed 6H, otherwise why bid 2H in the 1st place"?

[luke warm]

as a general rule, 5 controls is enough to take a peek at slam opposite a gf... i'm not in love with my hand, but i'd bid 4♣ because of the controls

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jun 14 2005, 07:37 PM, said:

Ben: Big difference between a 3C raise denying 6 hearts and a 2H rebid not promising 6. Say in your sequence I raise to 3C and pard gives me a 3H preference. Do I play pard for 2 or 3 card support? Is 3N now serious/ friv? Do we have a 7 or 8 card fit? Much confusion.

Well.. .there is a huge difference.. lets look at your two auctions...

1H - 2C
2H - 3H... .

Here you play (see your own first post), serious (well inverse serious) 3NT, assuming 8 card fit... .when 2H can Easily be a five card suit. Partner is MUCH more likely to be endplayed into raising on 2 card support than here....

1H - 2C
3C - 3H

Where you have found your a fit, partner might try 3D or 3S if interested in trying for NT... and since you didn't REBID hearts, is much more likely to have three hearts to raise here. A big advantage to this auction, however, is partner can after raising hearts here, pull out six key card blackwood next, and with this hand, nothing would make you happier.

I really, can't understand your concern on the second auction.. the first auction is much more problematic. And on this hand, where YOU do have six hearts, if partner raises with a doubleton, no matter, you have an 8 card fit. Your concern about being raised seems, to be honest, totally backwards.

[mike777]

Must admit I would think of bidding 3c not 2h at imps. Strong bias towards bidding where my hcp are before showing overall strength. My concern might be I do not have an outside entry to set up my hearts so may have to set up hearts first and then hope for 3-2 or 2-2 club break depending on p's hand.

[pclayton]

Well.. .there is a huge difference.. lets look at your two auctions...

1H - 2C
2H - 3H... .

Here you play (see your own first post), serious (well inverse serious) 3NT, assuming 8 card fit... .when 2H can Easily be a five card suit. Partner is MUCH more likely to be endplayed into raising on 2 card support than here....

Unless you play that a 2♥ rebid specifically promises 6, then I would posit that responder should never raise on a doubleton. Responder should do just about anything else. Serious 3N is certainly on - but how can it be sensibly played unless the partnership is confident of an 8 card fit?

Where you have found your a fit, partner might try 3D or 3S if interested in trying for NT... and since you didn't REBID hearts, is much more likely to have three hearts to raise here. A big advantage to this auction, however, is partner can after raising hearts here, pull out six key card blackwood next, and with this hand, nothing would make you happier.

Ben - this counters your argument. If Responder is 'more likely' to have 3 card support, then how do we ever find our 6-2? Opener is ignoring the 6 bagger and responder is ignoring doubleton support.

[mike777]

Yes I play 2h is a 6 card suit very often, if not, I would expect a very strong 5 card suit, but 6 cards very often. I do not play 6keycard either.

These 2 facts may change the parameters of problem too much. In your facts 2h may in fact be very much the best bid.

Please note even in my other style I think 2h is very reasonable choice over 3clubs..just closer decision. I still bid 4clubs..cuebid but minimum hand over p 3h now. Note 3h is a stronger slam try than in "standard 2/1".

Underpoint slam with no voids in any event.

[the hog]

Playing 2/1 I play that the 3C bid would show extra values. Here I would just bid 2H, which for me does not suggest a 6 card suit, simply not the ability to make another bid (2D) or a stronger bid viz 2N or 3C. My extra trump together with the 2 top C honours strongly suggest a 4C cue bid now rather than a frivolous 3NT.

[Chamaco]

This is a 7-losers hand.

I have found loser count to be a good criterion on whether or not reevaluate a hand once a fit is found.

An opening hand worth 7 losers is always a minimum opener, no matter whether a fit is there or not, therefore I will make the weakest possible bid here, which is the "frivolous 3NT" under the system constraints set by Phil.

Slam can still be on if pard has a 5 loser hand himself, in which case he still have the biding room to deliver his willingness to explore slam.

Bottomline: by bidding 3NT we "pull the brakes" if pard has a "normal" opening hand, and if pard has a reverse hand he still can explore further.

[PriorKnowledge]

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 03:51 PM, said:

4C=serious club cue. Like a hand you would have bid serious 3N on that has a club control.
3N=I have a cuebid that I could make but my hand is not in the serious 3N range (like a hand you would cuebid with playing serious 3N)
4H= uh... no cuebid to make. Inferentially good trumps (or a helluvalot of QJs).

Perfect summary. I could not agree more. These are the choices. And 3N stands out.

Although we like the idea of making a slam try with a hand that is all control cards, the simple fact remains that we a bare minimum opener and unless partner has extra strength the 5-level is not safe, much less the 6-level. We could easily get to 6H with 5 of 6 keycards with no hope of 12 tricks because we just did not have enough combined strength.

There is nothing more annoying than to have the tools to bid properly and partner does not use them.

We have a min opener. Bid 3N to show that. A 4C q-bid is an abuse of our system.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

We could easily get to 6H with 5 of 6 keycards with no hope of 12 tricks because we just did not have enough combined strength.

It's not a bare minimum any more. You have a sixth trump, a double fit, and AK of partner's 2/1 suit. These features are HUGE, worth a lot more than random extra high cards in the pointed suits. You will often have 11 tricks from just hearts/clubs alone. If partner bids slam, I expect to make it. 4c is a bit of an overbid, but encouragement is called for IMO since partner can't like his hand that much without CAK. Points schmoints. If it was xx Axxxxx Ax Kxx then you shouldn't be as aggressive.

[fifee]

4♣. Offers info to partner and prompts a ♦ cue, 4♥ or RKC.

[PriorKnowledge]

Steve, we don't know what partner has. Nor what partner needs. The point is we have an agreement. 3N shows a min and 4C would show extras.

Without one of the partners having extra strength, and neither partner can splinter, slam is very unlikely.

It is not unreasonable that partner has something like AKx Qxx Qx QJxxx or Axx Qxx Ax QJxxx. Opposite either hand 5H could go down.

[HeartA]

reisig, on Jun 14 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

4♣ - my hand is not bad (AK in pard's suit and 6th ♥

Ditto.