[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♦    Pass  1♠
 Pass  2♠    Pass  3NT
 Pass  4♠    Pass  6♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  



Hopefully my understanding of serious 3NT is that you have agreed a major so playing in NT is not an option (I may be wrong here, or as usual explanined myself badly)

Can someone give me the low down on this bidding

p opened (1 Diamond) I bid 1 spade pard raised me (2 spades) 12 -14 with 4 card spade support

I had the option to cue bid here as I was sure that even with minimum from my pard we should seriously consider 6 spades here,but I wanted to look at chances for 6nt or even 7 of something so I chose to force the issue of information from my p, so I chose the serious 3NT route (at least I hope that is what the bid is, it is certainly what I understand it to be)

anyway can some one put me straight if I have handled it badly please

[Blofeld]

As I would understand the auction, the 3NT bid denies the ability to make any cue-bid at the 3 level. So it would have to be either an offer to play or a hand with slam interest despite no controls in the side suits (and thus presumably excellent trumps - perhaps something like ♠AKQJxx ♥xx ♦QJ ♣QJ). With your hand I would simply have bid 3♣ and perhaps continued with 3NT over 3♥ (promising a diamond control by implication).

[hrothgar]

Jlall, on Jun 14 2005, 07:38 PM, said:

3N is natural and non forcing, a choice of games. Depending on partnership style the raise to 2S is somewhere between "sometimes" and "often" a 3 card raise so 3N just gives a choice. 3N serious would make no sense here even if you ALWAYS have 4 for a raise as it would eat up alot of room needlessly. The best bid would be 3C and see what develops. You did reach an excellent (and cold) slam so all's well that ends well.

Disagree with this....

If partner is prone to raise on 3 card support, then 2NT is typically used as an artificial checkback. Blasting to 3NT and praying that partner will make an intelligent decision doesn't strike me as reasonable...

With this said and done, I don't think that you should use this as "serious" either...
If 2S unambiguously promises 4 pieces, then 3NT should be some kind of picture jump.

I also prefer a 3♣ rebid...

[pclayton]

Its not Serious 3N - its a choice of games with a 4=3=3=3 or so and good side suit stoppers. I do play 2N as a checkback for 3 card support, but that doesn't preclude 3N from being natural.

Start with 3♣. For us, this is a slam try. A subsequent 3N would then be Serious.

[sceptic]

I intended to bid 3 clubs, but I was trying to remember how to use serious 3nt at the table, as with some nice , there is nothing like screwing up and learning the hard way

would 3 clubs (by me) then 3 hearts (by p) then a jump to 6 spades have been a reasonable decision???

[Walddk]

Let's get this straight here. 3NT is only the "serious 3NT" when one side is in an uncontested game-forcing auction.

Since 2♠ does not establish a game-force, 3NT has nothing to do with the serious 3NT Eric Rodwell invented (popularized). 3NT is merely a choice of game with around 19 and a 5332 shape of some kind with scattered values. Could be 4333 if you play 4-card majors.

To Blofeld: 3 of a new suit is not a cue bid. It's either natural or a game trial bid, depending on agreement. Cue bids start at the 4-level when spades are set, in 3♠ if hearts are agreed.

Roland

[Blofeld]

Roland: I'm sorry, admittedly it depends on agreements. I play the bids as either game trials or as advanced cues (in which case it will be revealed as such when you later take further action).

[Walddk]

Blofeld, on Jun 14 2005, 07:01 PM, said:

Roland: I'm sorry, admittedly it depends on agreements. I play the bids as either game trials or as advanced cues (in which case it will be revealed as such when you later take further action).

Right, but 3♣ itself is not a cue bid. I would have bid 3♣ myself, and then perhaps my partner would wake up and recover (4♥) after his serious underbid on his first turn. That hand is much too good for a single raise.

Roland

[Winstonm]

My understanding of serious 3N is that it only applies after an 8-card or better fit has been uncovered at the 3-level. 1S-2C-2S-3S-3N.

[Winstonm]

Just a note: My partner and I play 2-way game tries over a major raises and found them highly useful - but there was a problem.

1C-1S
2S-3C/D/H

We play that 2N asks for a "feature-type bid" while direct 3-level bids are short suit game tries. Problem became how do you initiate a slam try?

We found a pretty easy answer: Serious Self Raise: 1C-1S-2S-3S: Slam try.

WinstonM

[luke warm]

i wouldn't have thought the 3nt bid was a serious slam try, at the table... as roland says, there's no game force for one thing

[Free]

For me here, 3NT is natural and NF! It's made on a balanced hand with exactly 4 card ♠. Serious 3NT isn't even close! Start with 3♣, partner will interpret it as gametry, and if you continue to bid after a signoff it's a clear cuebid.

Serious 3NT is only valid in GF auctions (as Walddk said). The use of it in this bidding makes me think about the way people started using Gerber: way too much, and at the wrong moments.

[Gerben42]

What Free and Walddk said.

To try for slam, make a game try first and then cuebid for example.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership
agreement.

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found, 3NT is never
to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

The advantage: The rule is simple, foolproof.

The disadvantage: The rule is simple

If you are better than me and / or have a
better memory, you can try and give a 3NT bid,
made by opener / responder different meanings
depending on the auction.

I stick with the simple rule, because even in world
class events lots of IMP's fly out of the window, because
of disagreements about the meaning of bid, maybe it never
occcurred before, maybe one of the players got tired and
forgot the discusion made 3 years ago.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 07:20 PM, said:

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership
agreement.

With kind regards
Marlowe

You are of course most welcome to change the definition of when 3NT is the "serious 3NT", but I recommend that you follow the rule regarding the game-forcing auction.

A single raise doesn't establish a game force; I am sure we agree on that aspect. To let opener's 3NT rebid be a serious slam try makes little sense. How can an opener who didn't open 2♣ be seriously interested in slam just because responder has shown 6 points (distribution included)?

If he really is heading for slam already, there is something basically wrong with his 1♠ opening.

Roland

[fifee]

I think Serious 3NT has its place but should be discussed before using. My preference is only after game force established and only after major suit fit is agreed.

Bid 3♣ with this hand (hopefully my partner will think its a help suit game try or whatever we have agreed). If pd declines my invitation to game and I continue with a new suit, then partner knows I am interested in slam, not game.

If partner signs off at 3 of our major and I continue on and bid 3NT, then it is Serious 3NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Walddk, on Jun 15 2005, 12:42 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 07:20 PM, said:

for me 3NT would be serious, simply by partnership
agreement.

With kind regards
Marlowe

You are of course most welcome to change the definition of when 3NT is the "serious 3NT", but I recommend that you follow the rule regarding the game-forcing auction.

A single raise doesn't establish a game force; I am sure we agree on that aspect. To let opener's 3NT rebid be a serious slam try makes little sense. How can an opener who didn't open 2♣ be seriously interested in slam just because responder has shown 6 points (distribution included)?

If he really is heading for slam already, there is something basically wrong with his 1♠ opening.

Roland

Hi Roland,

to make sure, that I did not dream, as happens often ,
I looked it up again, but 1S was a response to a 1D opening
bid, so 3NT it self creates a game forcing situation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I did dream, writing 1C instead of 1D ...

PSS: And even if it was 1S opening 3NT would still be serious,
well useless as it maybe, but the charm is simplicity.
=> Because it is useless, one could easily find a more suitebale
meaning, but one needs to be sure, that both partners have the
memory power to remeber it.
For me it would be choice of games.

[Walddk]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 07:53 PM, said:

Hi Roland,

to make sure, that I did not dream, as happens often ,
I looked it up again, but 1S was a response to a 1D opening
bid, so 3NT it self creates a game forcing situation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

You are right, but it changes nothing. Opener's raise to 2♠ does not establish a game force, so per definition 3NT by responder next is not the "serious 3NT". Feel free to play it lika that if you prefer, but much more often will you need 3NT as a choice of games with something like

J953
KJ9
Q43
AQJ

If opener is unhappy about NT, he can always correct to 4♠. All you are telling him is that your hand is well suited for a NT contract.

Roland

[luke warm]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found, 3NT is never
to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

this isn't true... fred defines serious 3nt as (paraphrasing) "an 8 card or longer major suit fit in a game forcing auction"... how oh how did 2s on the example auction establish a game force? if it did not establish a game force, then opener (the 2s bidder) can not be expected to understand 3nt as anything other than an offer to play, regardless of responder's intent