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RHO preempts (say 3C) in the first seat. Your hand is too good for 3S. Which hands do you bid 4S with, and which do you double and then bid spades? 4S directly sets trump, so you (presumably) wouldn't do it with 5, but what other considerations are there? Is there any difference in strength, either minimum or maximum?
Peter
Strong Hand Over Preempt
#2
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Posted 2005-June-06, 21:27
rule of thumb?
Double only when you are prepared for anything partner might bid?
Double only when you are prepared for anything partner might bid?
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-June-06, 22:59
no difference in strength to me. X then spades is just more flexible than 4S.
#4
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Posted 2005-June-07, 06:28
3♣-3♠ is almost forcing to me.
#5
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Posted 2005-June-07, 10:44
Fluffy, on Jun 7 2005, 01:28 PM, said:
3♣-3♠ is almost forcing to me.
Indeed, so no real need to jump or anything...
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#6 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-June-07, 11:16
huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely? "almost forcing" doesn't exist, its like kind of pregnant. If you have a hand too good to be passed in 3S obviously you can't bid 3S, you need to jump (or X then bid spades, hence the thread).
#7
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Posted 2005-June-07, 12:18
Double then spades over a preempt shows a 5-card suit. It generally does not show extra strength like a dbl then bid does over a 1-of-a-suit opening.
3C X p 3H
p 3S = Something like KJxxx AQx AQxx x
3C 4S = Too strong for a 3S overcall
3C X p 3H
p 3S = Something like KJxxx AQx AQxx x
3C 4S = Too strong for a 3S overcall
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Posted 2005-June-07, 13:40
Could it not also show a GOSH that is actually too good for a 4S bid/ direct overcall, a hand that is able to play at 5-level should partner make an inconvenient response to double?
I do not agree that a simple 3-level overcall is almost forcing (although displaying a certain avatar and then using the phrase "like kinda pregnant" by one forum member raises some questions). Ya gotta compete when appropriate.
I do not agree that a simple 3-level overcall is almost forcing (although displaying a certain avatar and then using the phrase "like kinda pregnant" by one forum member raises some questions). Ya gotta compete when appropriate.
"That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!"
#9
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Posted 2005-June-07, 15:23
Jlall, on Jun 7 2005, 05:16 PM, said:
huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely?
This is a routine pass for me over 3♣, life has these things
#11
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Posted 2005-June-07, 17:29
Over a preempt, my preferred style is that doubling and then bidding always shows an interest in alternative contracts. So for example after 3♣:
X then bid spades = normally five card spades, maybe bad six, willing to play in a red suit
4♠ direct = just spades, good hand
X then bid hearts = normally five hearts, almost surely 3+ spades
X then 3NT = some interest in a major suit contract, partner can pull to 4M with 5-card suit
3NT = "I want to play 3NT" (could be running diams + stopper, partner should rarely pull)
X then bid spades = normally five card spades, maybe bad six, willing to play in a red suit
4♠ direct = just spades, good hand
X then bid hearts = normally five hearts, almost surely 3+ spades
X then 3NT = some interest in a major suit contract, partner can pull to 4M with 5-card suit
3NT = "I want to play 3NT" (could be running diams + stopper, partner should rarely pull)
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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Posted 2005-June-08, 08:24
this is how I see things after a 3♣ opening form opps:
3♦/♥/♠ immediately is a constructive hand with a good 6 card, opening values, but NOT forcing at all
3NT strong and balanced OR good ♦, of course with stop ♣, can have 5card♠
4♣ shows both majors or an almost slam-forcing hand
4♦ as world convention
4♠ is to play with no slam interest
DBL shows opening values and a 3suiter
bidding after double still shows a (+/-) 3suiter, but with a stronger hand (15+hcp); a very strong hand should be bid immediately with 4!c i think. After a double the chance is bigger that partner has good ♣ and he'll pass out your dbl, and with a hand with slam-interest in ♠ you don't want that to happen
3♦/♥/♠ immediately is a constructive hand with a good 6 card, opening values, but NOT forcing at all
3NT strong and balanced OR good ♦, of course with stop ♣, can have 5card♠
4♣ shows both majors or an almost slam-forcing hand
4♦ as world convention
4♠ is to play with no slam interest
DBL shows opening values and a 3suiter
bidding after double still shows a (+/-) 3suiter, but with a stronger hand (15+hcp); a very strong hand should be bid immediately with 4!c i think. After a double the chance is bigger that partner has good ♣ and he'll pass out your dbl, and with a hand with slam-interest in ♠ you don't want that to happen
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Posted 2005-June-08, 08:30
What's the world convention?
I can't find anything about it online.
I can't find anything about it online.
#14
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Posted 2005-June-08, 08:42
3♠ is not forcing at all to me, I like to bid 3♠ when I think 3♠ is a logic option to release some pressure from pd. Passing with hands that can bid 3♠ only increase pd problems.
A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.
Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).
Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.
Luis
A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.
Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).
Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.
Luis
The legend of the black octogon.
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Posted 2005-June-08, 08:50
Blofeld, on Jun 8 2005, 09:30 AM, said:
What's the world convention?
I can't find anything about it online.
I can't find anything about it online.
a good 2-suiter with ♦ and a Major, GF
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Posted 2005-June-08, 08:52
luis, on Jun 8 2005, 09:42 AM, said:
3♠ is not forcing at all to me, I like to bid 3♠ when I think 3♠ is a logic option to release some pressure from pd. Passing with hands that can bid 3♠ only increase pd problems.
A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.
Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).
Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.
Luis
A direct 4♠ is usually a intermediate hand with 6 or 7 spades.
Double followed by 3♠ is strong(ish).
Maybe it is too simple but I confess it is what I play.
Luis
I like those simple things !
That's how I play too.
Alain
Alain
#17
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Posted 2005-June-08, 09:02
I don't think you want to double with this hand, all vulnerable:
♠ KQJTxxx
♥ KQ
♦ AKQJ
♣ -
and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.
imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values
With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.
♠ KQJTxxx
♥ KQ
♦ AKQJ
♣ -
and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.
imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values
With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.
#18
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Posted 2005-June-08, 09:27
You'd pass over 3♣ with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x Fluffy? Yuck...you've got the club shortage so pard is never going to balance without a lot of strength, you're gonna miss game so often here.
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Posted 2005-June-08, 09:41
toothbrush, on Jun 8 2005, 03:02 PM, said:
I don't think you want to double with this hand, all vulnerable:
♠ KQJTxxx
♥ KQ
♦ AKQJ
♣ -
and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.
imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values
With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.
♠ KQJTxxx
♥ KQ
♦ AKQJ
♣ -
and risk that p has good ♣ and passes!!! I think dbl is the worst thing you can do with this hand.
imo DBL should show a 3-suiter with short ♣ and at least opening values
With the hand above I may bid 4♣ to show ♠ in a next round, if partner passes then he must have a very useless hand.
I disagree with everything you say
With the hand you post I just bid 6♠ how many times will I hold such a hand?
The legend of the black octogon.
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Posted 2005-June-08, 09:47
Fluffy, on Jun 7 2005, 09:23 PM, said:
Jlall, on Jun 7 2005, 05:16 PM, said:
huh? Wouldn't people overcall 3S with AQJxxx Kxx Qxx x pretty routinely?
This is a routine pass for me over 3♣, life has these things
I will preempt much more often when I get chance to play against you:)