[Jschatzman]

While I used to play often, including clubs and events, I haven't for 20 years. I would like to refresh my skills and get back into regular play.

I have been using BBO Solitaire/Just Play, and it seems useful for refreshing basic skills, but I am frustrated with it because:

a) Computer uses loads of conventions I don't know and don't really care to learn.
b) Worse - computer players do not consistently seem to follow the conventions the computer says it is using.
c) Computer leads are highly erratic and often very poor. For example, why does partner NEVER lead my bid suit when defending against NT contracts?

Questions:
1) Is it possible to tune computer player (e.g., select/deselect bid conventions, tune lead conventions)?
2) Is there another mode of play that you would recommend over Solitaire/Just Play?

Thanks in advance-
Jim

[mikeh]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-16, 12:48, said:

While I used to play often, including clubs and events, I haven't for 20 years. I would like to refresh my skills and get back into regular play.

I have been using BBO Solitaire/Just Play, and it seems useful for refreshing basic skills, but I am frustrated with it because:

a) Computer uses loads of conventions I don't know and don't really care to learn.
b) Worse - computer players do not consistently seem to follow the conventions the computer says it is using.
c) Computer leads are highly erratic and often very poor. For example, why does partner NEVER lead my bid suit when defending against NT contracts?

Questions:
1) Is it possible to tune computer player (e.g., select/deselect bid conventions, tune lead conventions)?
2) Is there another mode of play that you would recommend over Solitaire/Just Play?

Thanks in advance-
Jim

do you have any real life partners?

Imo, and I have been playing some solitaire recently, 'practicing' against robots will ultimately, if not immediately, be detrimental to your game.

Robots' bidding is driven by some very simplistic rules. Their defence is appalling. I once switched to AQx of clubs, against 3N, inferring from the auction that partner needed to have club length/strength to beat the contract. My Ace and Queen won, and partner won his King, as declarer showed out, marking partner with Jx remaining, both winners. The robot switched. And that was just one egregious instance.

Plus you are stuck with its methods, and cannot ever 'discuss' changes. Further plus, there is no scope for any discussion about how one might/should have bid a hand better.

A real life partner, ideally slightly better than you and at worst no more than slightly less knowledgeable than you allows for discussion, and modification of agreements.

But leaving all that to one side: do you have or are you prepared to get access to The Bridge World?

Ideally you know someone (or know someone who knows someone) who has been a long time subscriber and is willing to lend you a good number of back issues: I would suggest any from the last 30 years. Read the Master Solvers Club. IMO, that feature is worth the price of the magazine al by iteself.

What you get is a cross-section of views on difficult hands, with editing and commenting by some of the best analysts in the world. It's not so much telling you a system, although you could do a lot worse than playing Bridge World Standard,as it is giving you an insight into HOW to think at the table.

In short: robot bridge is not bridge, it inculcates bad habits, and will make you a worse bidder and probably a worse card player.

[nige1]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-16, 12:48, said:

1) Is it possible to tune computer player (e.g., select/deselect bid conventions, tune lead conventions)
(2) Is there another mode of play that you would recommend over Solitaire/Just Play?

• To hone your play, use BridgeMaster. Fred Gitelman's brilliant tool that adjusts defender's hands to punish inferior play.
• To improve your bidding, use a bidding-practice table, after you and partner buy the same book (e.g. Terence Reese's Precision Bidding and Precision Play which also has interesting play hands). Bridge World, Australian Bridge and Bridge Advocate run on-line quizzes.

[pilowsky]

I am in a similar position to you except that I used to play Chess. I don't agree with Mikeh. Mike is an Expert who has reached his level. He is in a stable position with a system that works for him.
But I do agree with Nige1.
The robots bidding and play is neither 'good nor bad', They do make 'wrong' decisions, but so do humans. This makes practising with them useful.
The GIB system is 'cut down' and they play it in a highly reliable fashion. Best of all, they never forget, and they alert all their bids.
I would do the following

• Join Prime. This way you get to practice endlessly with Advanced robots in defence and as declarer.
• Learn shape as well as HCP - people say 'shape' but no-one in the Club explains what it means.
• Get an Educator that you like and have regular one on one lessons. As a retired Educator I can tell you that the most important thing about a mentor is that you know that they are good and that you understand what they are saying.
• Don't worry about a 'regular partner' until you find your level. Partners will come to you as you reach your level.
• This process may take a while but Bridge is a mind game. Although it is played with a partner, it's still your mind.
• Be relaxed.

I find the Robot system quite soothing because of its simplicity. When I have conquered it I may start to add more, but I think it will take a long time. When I play with partners I generally play SAYC with even fewer gadgets. Most Bridgeplayers are not as strong as GIB.
There are a lot of resources out there. I really like Max Chauvet's (card-play) and Rob Barrington's (system) videos. Mike Lawrence's Books are good but again, choose a style that you like when it comes to books. Some Bridge writers tend to be writing for themselves.
Anyway, that's my humble opinion.
Good luck partner.

[crapdown4]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-16, 12:48, said:

While I used to play often, including clubs and events, I haven't for 20 years. I would like to refresh my skills and get back into regular play.

I have been using BBO Solitaire/Just Play, and it seems useful for refreshing basic skills, but I am frustrated with it because:

a) Computer uses loads of conventions I don't know and don't really care to learn.
b) Worse - computer players do not consistently seem to follow the conventions the computer says it is using.
c) Computer leads are highly erratic and often very poor. For example, why does partner NEVER lead my bid suit when defending against NT contracts?

Questions:
1) Is it possible to tune computer player (e.g., select/deselect bid conventions, tune lead conventions)?
2) Is there another mode of play that you would recommend over Solitaire/Just Play?

Thanks in advance-
Jim

BBO doesn't use robots. It uses robidiots. Playing with one is an exercise in frustration.

I recommend just playing with regular humans. Try to use BBO's messaging functions to set up semi-regular partnerships and play in the "competitive" practice area--start your own table if you wish. Stay out of the "casual" area--people there are awful and they often leave in the middle of a hand.

You should also consider playing in some virtual club games. You can contact a club that runs them and ask to be put on their roster. The level of competition will be similar to that of a "live" club game, and you might be able to form partnerships for subsequent times.

I am of the firm opinion that you have to play with actual people people to get better.

[Jschatzman]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice! Two things I don't quite get

1) What is Prime?

2) How can I find an Educator?

Thanks in advance-

Jim

[Vampyr]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-17, 17:28, said:

Thanks to everyone for the great advice! Two things I don't quite get

1) What is Prime?

2) How can I find an Educator?

Thanks in advance-

Jim

Prime, as mentioned above, is a pay service that allows you to practice with advanced robots. Maybe they play better than the basic robots. Who knows? It is still a robot.

To find an “Educator” , investigate bridge teachers in your area. You may want to focus on those who don’t advocate the conventions and systems that don’t interest you. Ideally, the teacher should be able to set up a table with you and two other students, and have a Zoom session afterwards to discuss. I suspect that many classes are run this way these days, and you can find them on many levels and topics. Bridge clubs are a good place to find teachers and classes. Of course you could choose from anywhere on Earth, but you might be better off looking in your general vicinity so the bidding you practice will be compatible with local players once you can play live bridge.

This would be a good way to find potential partners. I agree with mikeh’s comments above; practicing with robots will harm your game. Also you defend 50% of the time, so a partner who practises partnership defence is very important. GIB does not do this.

[pilowsky]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-17, 17:28, said:

Thanks to everyone for the great advice! Two things I don't quite get

1) What is Prime?

2) How can I find an Educator?

Thanks in advance-

Jim

Here is a link to the Prime club information https://blog.bridgeb...t-is-bbo-prime/
I am not a Bridge professional, and I do not work for BBO. I am a professional educator.
Vampyr's advice is pretty good. In the main, I would avoid people that style themselves as 'Teachers' because they want you to sit still while they tell you things.
There are very few people that I know for whom this is a good learning modality. The best Educator will engage you in a discussion, direct you to resources and give you insights into how to develop your game.
Whether or not you choose to play with a partner, online against robots or whatever is up to you.
The assertion that practice with robots will damage your game is not supported by any evidence. It is not one that I agree with. My game, with robots and face-to-face, has dramatically improved after using the robots for practice.

[Huibertus]

Jschatzman, on 2020-August-16, 12:48, said:

While I used to play often, including clubs and events, I haven't for 20 years. I would like to refresh my skills and get back into regular play.

I have been using BBO Solitaire/Just Play, and it seems useful for refreshing basic skills, but I am frustrated with it because:

a) Computer uses loads of conventions I don't know and don't really care to learn.
b) Worse - computer players do not consistently seem to follow the conventions the computer says it is using.
c) Computer leads are highly erratic and often very poor. For example, why does partner NEVER lead my bid suit when defending against NT contracts?

Questions:
1) Is it possible to tune computer player (e.g., select/deselect bid conventions, tune lead conventions)?
2) Is there another mode of play that you would recommend over Solitaire/Just Play?

Thanks in advance-
Jim

Improving play requires pattern recognition, no practise with computers or in real life will make you achieve it. Study good books on declarer and defensive play.

Improving bidding requires learning a system and agreeing with a partner on it's details. Choose a bidding system with a partner, both study it until you know it by heart. And then discuss it, discuss it and discuss it.

[Vampyr]

Huibertus, on 2020-August-18, 02:47, said:

Improving play requires pattern recognition, no practise with computers or in real life will make you achieve it. Study good books on declarer and defensive play.

The Bridge Master feature in the Solitaire section on BBO offers good declarer play problems and gives solutions.

[Vampyr]

pilowsky, on 2020-August-17, 22:07, said:

In the main, I would avoid people that style themselves as 'Teachers' because they want you to sit still while they tell you things.
There are very few people that I know for whom this is a good learning modality. The best Educator will engage you in a discussion, direct you to resources and give you insights into how to develop your game.

But no English person would call himself an “Educator”. It’s just not a word that is used. So your comparison with your conception of “teachers” is not valid.

Quote

Whether or not you choose to play with a partner, online against robots or whatever is up to you.
The assertion that practice with robots will damage your game is not supported by any evidence. It is not one that I agree with. My game, with robots and face-to-face, has dramatically improved after using the robots for practice.

You are the only one who feels this way. Why is that?

[nudnikbp]

Instead of just playing solitaire bridge with the standard robots, pay a small fee to play with and against the advanced robots. They play better, not to be confused with perfectly. From the home screen, click on Competitive, then click on Daylong Tournaments, then scroll down and click on bbo (not ACBL) Daylong Tournament (IMP)1 or bbo Daylong Tournament (IMP)2. I recommend the pairs game with IMP scoring instead of matchpoint scoring because, as far as I can tell, the competition is tougher and that is good for your game. The fee is .39 to play an eight-board match. Although the advanced robots still misdefend from time to time and that is annoying, overall it is worth the small fee to play with the advanced robots. You can also play in ACBL pair events with imp scoring if you want to collect ACBL masterpoints, but the ACBL charges fees that are more than three times as much as BBO.
I'd also recommend going through the Bridge Master declarer play tutorials, starting with the level 1, then proceeding sequentially.
As an aside, I'll never play bridge as well as mikeh, but I think he is wrong about this issue.

[pilowsky]

Vampyr, on 2020-August-18, 05:30, said:

But no English person would call himself an "Educator". It's just not a word that is used. So your comparison with your conception of "teachers" is not valid.


You are the only one who feels this way. Why is that?

I do not think this is the right place for a discussion about Teaching and Education.
The demographic that plays and learns bridge is for the most part highly educated. The Journal of Higher education is called the Educator.
Why do you claim expertise in an area that you are clearly non-expert?
Also, this is not really the topic of this thread. Please start a new topic in the water cooler where I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have about teaching and education.

[Huibertus]

Vampyr, on 2020-August-18, 05:30, said:

You are the only one who feels this way. Why is that?

No I'm not the only one. Read the best (or most advanced is probably a better way to describe it) bridge book on play "Adventures in Card Play" and you'll find exactly this message with a proper explanation as to why this is the case. (I'm not remotely claiming I'm capable of plays described in that book )

[akwoo]

I don't think GiB is that bad a player - various experiments have generally shown that it scores 55% or so playing in average club games.

Let's put it this way - if I'm in a silly Individual tournament on BBO that pairs you up with a random partner and uses GiB when the number of players isn't divisible by 4, I'm always happy to get GiB instead of a random partner.

Conventions: For every convention GiB plays, almost every good pair either plays that convention or plays some replacement convention that is at least as complicated and serves the same purpose. It's possible to do without, but people generally find they're giving up too much by not playing some convention in those situations. (I play regularly in one partnership with very few conventions; I estimate we're giving up about 5%.)

Defense 1: GiB doesn't signal, and it frequently makes nonstandard leads after the opening lead. You'll have to learn to figure out where the cards are without help from partner. For me, learning to figure out the cards without help from partner (which I learned by playing with (life) novices often enough) made me much better at figuring out the cards when partner did help.

Defense 2: GiB plays defense as follows. It generates 1000 layouts of the cards that agree with its hand and the bidding and play so far. For each of those hands, it calculates how good each lead/play is, assuming perfect double dummy play by all. It averages these 1000 results and chooses the lead/play with the best average.

[y66]

My 2 cents:

1. Take playing lessons from the best pro you can afford. A pro can quickly zero in on problem areas, steer you away from stuff that isn't helping and provide relevant bidding practice and discussion. Gavin Wolpert is giving lessons online that are not too expensive. He may be available to discuss your game and help you come up with a plan.
2. Read The Language of Bridge by Kit Woolsey and his posts at bridgewinners.com.

[Vampyr]

akwoo, on 2020-August-18, 10:39, said:

Let's put it this way - if I'm in a silly Individual tournament on BBO that pairs you up with a random partner and uses GiB when the number of players isn't divisible by 4, I'm always happy to get GiB instead of a random partner.

I recently played in a free individual. On the last hand partner opened 2♣, 2♦ overcall, P,P 2♥ by partner. I tried 5♥, hoping my “random partner” would bid 6♥ with a second-round diamond stop. After bidding I saw that my partner was a robot. If I had noticed this in time I would have just bid 6♥ myself and won the event. If I were an inexperienced player I would perhaps come to the conclusion that the 6♥ bid is good bridge. When I play in free robot tournaments I find it is necessary to jump to slams on a total guess in order to score more than 60%. If I A) hadn’t been playing for decades and B) played a lot with robots I might develop a lot of bad habits in slam bidding alone.

And as mikeh mentioned above, defending with the robots is really frustrating. And for this reason declarer play practice is not helpful, since the robot will not defend optimally, or anywhere near.

But playing free robot tournaments or solitaire is a good way to keep my hands busy when I’m watching TV. So it’s not a total loss.

[mikeh]

Huibertus, on 2020-August-18, 08:28, said:

No I'm not the only one. Read the best (or most advanced is probably a better way to describe it) bridge book on play "Adventures in Card Play" and you'll find exactly this message with a proper explanation as to why this is the case. (I'm not remotely claiming I'm capable of plays described in that book )

Adventures in Card Play is a remarkable book, but it is not going to help (almost) anyone learn to play better. I am an expert....I have played in a number of WCs, and have won my country's team trials 4 times. I say this only to emphasize the point when I say that I have seen almost none of the Adventures in Card Play esoteric techniques at the table. Was there a backwash squeeze or an entry-shifting squeeze on some hands? Maybe. But if so neither I nor my very skilled partners (in serious events I try, with some success, to be the weakest member of the pair/team:))) nor the sometimes world champion opps ever noticed them.

The elopement idea is almost worth the price of the book, but elopement is a technique that most good players know already, and can be learned elsewhere.

The Rodwell Files is exceptional, and the (many) ideas written about there are from real life, and anyone who plays a lot will encounter these situations with some frequency. It is pitched at a fairly high level but far less than AICP, which is really just a collection of Bridge World articles, linked by Kelsey with a sometime dated style of narrative story-telling

[mikeh]

y66, on 2020-August-18, 11:30, said:

My 2 cents:

1. Take playing lessons from the best pro you can afford. A pro can quickly zero in on problem areas, steer you away from stuff that isn't helping and provide relevant bidding practice and discussion. Gavin Wolpert is giving lessons online that are not too expensive. He may be available to discuss your game and help you come up with a plan.
2. Read The Language of Bridge by Kit Woolsey and his posts at bridgewinners.com.

I'm not in GW's league as a player, but I am available for lessons: using BBO and also zoom for discussions before and after BBO.

[Stephen Tu]

Vampyr, on 2020-August-18, 12:07, said:

And as mikeh mentioned above, defending with the robots is really frustrating. And for this reason declarer play practice is not helpful, since the robot will not defend optimally, or anywhere near.

I still think the bots are helpful for practicing declarer play. Exploiting bad defenders for extra tricks, giving them chances to go wrong, taking full advantage of gifts, is part of being a good declarer; good play still racks up higher scores in tournaments and in the main club in the long run. Sure something like Bridge Master which relentlessly punishes every mistake, makes finesse lose both ways when you were supposed to endplay instead of hook one way or the other, is more efficient in training out bad habits, enforcing proper technique. But there are only a limited number of Bridge Master deals, and it also tends to present "purer" teaching deals focusing on one or two themes rather than the more complex combinations of things to worry about that tend to arise in more random deals. It's hard to beat robots for getting pure volume of practice hands in, opps/partner that don't complain about things, leave table in middle of hands, always available at any time, let you pause to thoroughly analyze previous deal, etc. There is always option to get a copy of say Jack or wbridge5 to get customizable bidding, more modern/less buggy bot to practice against. It's not like great human defenders are readily available to practice against for an intermediate player; top players tend to be playing in set team games/practices, not playing against randoms, no? I don't really agree with mikeh that playing against bots must inevitably make you a worse player; I am able to recognize when I made a mistake and should have chosen a better line, or if the opponents were supposed to beat me and screwed up themselves, whether I am playing against poor bot defense or poor human defense. As an intermediate you won't be able to recognize these things as easily (or sometimes at all) as more advanced/expert players do, but that's what books are for, to teach you how to think, what to look for, if like many/most you can't really afford a pro as a mentor.

Definitely read some good books on declarer play/defense (Bill Root, Mollo/Gardner Card play technique, Kantar), find some books on modern bidding to plug knowledge of common conventions (prob have to learn 2/1 at this point to get decent partners in U.S., at least). baronbarclay.com has a comprehensive selection, you should describe more of what you do/don't know/want to learn and we can point you to particular titles.

Practice vs bridge master, play some with humans on BBO, play some with robots on BBO, maybe get other software. Just remember the BBO bots are occasionally making nutty bids and aren't signalling, so try to figure out better bids and defense from the books, not necessarily what the bots are doing. And how you would bid with an expert human counterpart isn't always the same as you would partnering someone at a lower level than you, whether human or bot, you have to pick bids partner can understand.

And eventually try to find some regular human partners near your level online and in real life when the Covid-19 situation is finally under control.