[mikeh]

 Stephen Tu, on 2020-August-18, 13:24, said:

I still think the bots are helpful for practicing declarer play. Exploiting bad defenders for extra tricks, giving them chances to go wrong, taking full advantage of gifts, is part of being a good declarer; good play still racks up higher scores in tournaments and in the main club in the long run. Sure something like Bridge Master which relentlessly punishes every mistake, makes finesse lose both ways when you were supposed to endplay instead of hook one way or the other, is more efficient in training out bad habits, enforcing proper technique. But there are only a limited number of Bridge Master deals, and it also tends to present "purer" teaching deals focusing on one or two themes rather than the more complex combinations of things to worry about that tend to arise in more random deals. It's hard to beat robots for getting pure volume of practice hands in, opps/partner that don't complain about things, leave table in middle of hands, always available at any time, let you pause to thoroughly analyze previous deal, etc. There is always option to get a copy of say Jack or wbridge5 to get customizable bidding, more modern/less buggy bot to practice against. It's not like great human defenders are readily available to practice against for an intermediate player; top players tend to be playing in set team games/practices, not playing against randoms, no? I don't really agree with mikeh that playing against bots must inevitably make you a worse player; I am able to recognize when I made a mistake and should have chosen a better line, or if the opponents were supposed to beat me and screwed up themselves, whether I am playing against poor bot defense or poor human defense. As an intermediate you won't be able to recognize these things as easily (or sometimes at all) as more advanced/expert players do, but that's what books are for, to teach you how to think, what to look for, if like many/most you can't really afford a pro as a mentor.

Definitely read some good books on declarer play/defense (Bill Root, Mollo/Gardner Card play technique, Kantar), find some books on modern bidding to plug knowledge of common conventions (prob have to learn 2/1 at this point to get decent partners in U.S., at least). baronbarclay.com has a comprehensive selection, you should describe more of what you do/don't know/want to learn and we can point you to particular titles.

Practice vs bridge master, play some with humans on BBO, play some with robots on BBO, maybe get other software. Just remember the BBO bots are occasionally making nutty bids and aren't signalling, so try to figure out better bids and defense from the books, not necessarily what the bots are doing. And how you would bid with an expert human counterpart isn't always the same as you would partnering someone at a lower level than you, you have to pick bids partner can understand.


And eventually try to find some regular human partners near your level online and in real life when the Covid-19 situation is finally under control.

I don’t know you, Stephen other than through this forum, but you’re clearly a good player, well able to avoid the trap of analyzing your play and bidding by reference to the result, particularly the idiosyncrasies of GIB bidding and defence. I know all too well, from having given group lessons based on hands from club play, where the Deep Finesse analysis was available, that many players tend to think that if, double dummy, a contract makes, then they’ve made a mistake either by not bidding it or by going down, or both. Robot bridge has many of the same type of flaws if one cannot, independently, assess ones bidding and play.

[Stephen Tu]

 mikeh, on 2020-August-18, 13:35, said:

I know all too well, from having given group lessons based on hands from club play, where the Deep Finesse analysis was available, that many players tend to think that if, double dummy, a contract makes, then they've made a mistake either by not bidding it or by going down, or both. Robot bridge has many of the same type of flaws if one cannot, independently, assess ones bidding and play.

Yes I agree one must be able to independently analyze deals without taking the double-dummy analysis as the basis for how the single-dummy play should go, or what contract should be reached. Thus I stress the importance of books to learn how to think about things/analyze, these are easier/much cheaper to find for most people than a good pro. If one is loaded then I guess you can just hire like a Rosenberg to teach you at the local club, but those of us of more modest means have to rely on books and our own learning/reading ability. I consider my teachers to be Root, Kantar, Kelsey, Reese, Lawrence, Miles, etc. Only ever met the last two in person for a few hands but I feel like I probably learned as much as I could from their books as I could have if they instructed me personally, for a tiny fraction of the cost.

But I think having robots to practice against is good. When I was starting out learning almost 30 years ago, it was frustrating dealing with sometimes rude partners/opponents when playing with randoms online, who were often giving out inaccurate, sometimes ludicrous advice. It would have been good to have a bot to play a bunch of hands against. Random humans are bad at bridge also, worse on average than the bots. Good humans willing to practice with you (for free) are going to be hard to find IMO, have to make do with what you can get, and try to analyze with what you learn from books and what you can figure out for yourself. Can ask here in the forum for hands where you need extra help.

[dsLawsd]

These are good suggestions in the whole. A lot depends in what you want out of bridge: competition, place in club games, or develop expertise? For the best of bridge you will need a live, competitive partner with the same objectives.

Having not played in tournaments much recently, I established a self-improvement plan. Of course, while I find that competitive bridge has changed in the last decade in bidding, having been a Life long subscriber to The Bridge World kept the shock down and my skills decent.

Unfortunately, COVID-19 has stopped my ultimate goal: to find an appropriate regular partner- better to that in person IMHO.

But beginning in April 2019 I decide to play the robot tournaments to add Master Points to my total. Playing the robot game is like playing as a semi-pro in that you must handle their crazy mistakes and lead them toward sanity when possible. That can improve your game.

I also set about to reread my very well stocked bridge book library including:

The Secrets of Winning Bridge by Jeff Rubens
Matchpoints by Kit Woolsey
The Rodwell Files by Rodwell (this book has improved my already good declarer play by at least 10%)
Roman Keycard Blackwood- the Final by Edwin Kantar (only when ready with an advanced partner!)
All 52 Cards by Marshall Miles (terrific)
Following The Law by Larry Cohen
Bridge at The Edge by Boye Brogeland & David Bird
and several more...

Thinking bridge is a necessity for improvement.

I also looked at how experts are playing these days by
Making a copy of many top pairs convention cards to see how they combine things including their defensive methods.

Thank goodness for BBO making this possible.

So whatever your interest you will find the right path!

[patcanuck]

One of the simple suggestions that seems to be overlooked is to join BIL and ask for a mentor. A group of nearly a dozen of us were assigned one and he is worth his weight in gold. Absolutely everything he has taught us has been backed up time after time by the Experts who run bridge lessons here on BBO.

[pilowsky]

 patcanuck, on 2020-August-19, 01:28, said:

One of the simple suggestions that seems to be overlooked is to join BIL and ask for a mentor. A group of nearly a dozen of us were assigned one and he is worth his weight in gold. Absolutely everything he has taught us has been backed up time after time by the Experts who run bridge lessons here on BBO.

I could not agree more. I also play in the BIL. It is outstanding.
Maureen Hall who runs the Beginners Intermediate Lounge from New Zealand is an ornament to the international community.
She and her team of Directors deserve medals. They run the best Bridge Club I have ever had the pleasure of participating in.
The quality and behaviour of advisors on the BIL stands in sharp contrast to that which I have witnessed in other places.

[nekthen]

I would consider joining the BIL and or IAC clubs. They have regular group teaching sessions and tournaments where you will hopefully find some partners of a similar standard. There are some conventions that were considered esoteric 20 years ago, that are standard now and it would be best to learn how to play them. Google will tell you what you need to know.
1. RKCB is so much better than Blackwood
2. Puppet Stayman over 2N
3. 4 suit Transfers
4. Unassuming Cue Bids
5. Michaels Cue Bids
6. Support doubles
7. Jacoby 2N

There are others but I would guess this is what the majority would expect you to play in a pick up game on bbo

As well as being a mind game bridge is a partnership game and finding some people to play with is far better for you and your bridge than playing with robots

[phikappaph]

Robots are robots and the point is to improve what you can using that format. I find robots are great to improve several things about my play: First, counting cards as the play goes on. Knowing card count was always a weakness for me and now it is almost automatic. Second, review and appreciate conventions that the robots use that I do as well: Overcalls to a 1NT opening, slam conventions (for me, trying to predict what the robot will bid if it has a void!) and the continuing dilemma of SYAC vs. 2 over 1. - I am becoming more of a 2 over 1 player because of the robots. Defense is hit or miss but my defense is much better because I know the count.

One has to learn conventions these days to play bridge at any rewarding level. My suggestion is using SAYC as the card is specific and the conventions are easily understood. I would also observe hands by players using the convention you decide to use. Try to predict bids before they are made. Try and predict opening leads before they are made.

As for casual format playing. They play is not great all the time, agreed. But, start off there to feel comfortable playing and if you keep at it, you will find you are one of the better players, then look for a better table. My play with friends has greatly improved since I have played with the robot format.

Good luck.

[Joe_Old]

There's no substitute for hard work if you want to improve your game. Reading is essential, and BBO offers another opportunity: Vugraph. The players are almost always excellent, if not world class. While their bidding may be more complex than you want, you can always learn from the declarer play and defense.
The secret to getting the most out of Vugraph is to kibitz only one player. Don't be lazy and "see what she/he does". Count the hands and plan the play yourself, then see what the expert does. Then analyze why the play did or didn't work (while the commentary is usually excellent, don't look until the hand is over - the point is for you to think about the hand).

[msjennifer]

Sir,
I am too junior to give an advice but the way I learnt Bridge ,step by step,
1.Read a book on a standard system.2.Read any good book on intervention bidding 3.Keep on watching international players on VU GRAPH and/or tables 1/2 in your local area tournaments. 4.BROWN ON WINNING DEFENCE. 5.George S Coffins A to Z 6.Coffins SURE TRICKS 7.KELSEYS BOOKS on Bridge.8.A huge book perhaps out of print on TRUMP CONTROL 9.LOVE'S Bridge squeezes complete.10.Coffins ENDPLAYS IN BRIDGE 11.Adventures in card play( but remember that even as a 14 yr old ,I found at least two ""COOKS"deals in it where the contract can be made on a double squeeze rather than the back wash etc as depicted) 12 Any good books on Latest Conventions in Bridge.

Finally ,it is READ and REMEMBER as much as one can in the time available.Then comes PRACTISE what one has learnt.One must take part later in the various individual or Pairs events and try and reach the 50%mark.(Not easy, playing with unknown partners).Playing after 20 years is a difficult proposition.
Sorry for taking a big morsel in mouth.THANKS and BEST OF LUCK.

[blackshoe]

Hm. Let's see if I can't format that list a little more readably.

• Read a book on a standard system.
  
• Read any good book on intervention bidding
  
• Keep on watching international players on VU GRAPH and/or tables 1/2 in your local area tournaments.
  
• BROWN ON WINNING DEFENCE.
  
• George S Coffins A to Z
  
• Coffins SURE TRICKS
  
• KELSEYS BOOKS on Bridge.
  
• A huge book perhaps out of print on TRUMP CONTROL
  
• LOVE'S Bridge squeezes complete.
  
• Coffins ENDPLAYS IN BRIDGE
  
• Adventures in card play( but remember that even as a 14 yr old ,I found at least two ""COOKS"deals in it where the contract can be made on a double squeeze rather than the back wash etc as depicted)
  
• Any good books on Latest Conventions in Bridge.

There ya go.

[pilowsky]

 blackshoe, on 2020-August-20, 13:22, said:

Hm. Let's see if I can't format that list a little more readably.

• Read a book on a standard system.
• Read any good book on intervention bidding
• Keep on watching international players on VU GRAPH and/or tables 1/2 in your local area tournaments.
• BROWN ON WINNING DEFENCE.
• George S Coffins A to Z
• Coffins SURE TRICKS
• KELSEYS BOOKS on Bridge.
• A huge book perhaps out of print on TRUMP CONTROL
• LOVE'S Bridge squeezes complete.
• Coffins ENDPLAYS IN BRIDGE
• Adventures in card play( but remember that even as a 14 yr old ,I found at least two ""COOKS"deals in it where the contract can be made on a double squeeze rather than the back wash etc as depicted)
• Any good books on Latest Conventions in Bridge.

There ya go.

lookatallthehelpfulpeopleyoucanfindontheforum

[pescetom]

 y66, on 2020-August-18, 11:30, said:

My 2 cents:

1. Take playing lessons from the best pro you can afford. A pro can quickly zero in on problem areas, steer you away from stuff that isn't helping and provide relevant bidding practice and discussion. Gavin Wolpert is giving lessons online that are not too expensive. He may be available to discuss your game and help you come up with a plan.
2. Read The Language of Bridge by Kit Woolsey and his posts at bridgewinners.com.

But also ask Kit about his 3 clubs lead in Wuhan
We are all human.

[Jschatzman]

O.k. I have tried playing with the robots in BBO Prime. They seem to be better than the free robots, but they are still frustrating:

1) They bid too aggressively for my tastes.

2) Partner does not lead well - seems like leads have very little to do with the bidding, nor with common sense.

So playing with the robots is not a waste of time, because after having left the game for quite a few years, it helps me remember. I think it may be most useful for catching my own mistakes.

But... I am back to my original question. What is a recommended learning/fun environment to get my skills up? I would go to a club except....

[Stephen Tu]

 Jschatzman, on 2020-September-12, 19:21, said:

But... I am back to my original question. What is a recommended learning/fun environment to get my skills up? I would go to a club except....

As mentioned often above, BIL:
https://www.bilbridge.com/

+Baron Barclay
https://www.baronbarclay.com/ for books on any particular topic you want particular focus on, ask here for specific recommendations.

[Jschatzman]

My mistake- I didn't notice that there was a second page of responses. Thank you to everyone! I did obtain a couple of the recommended books, and I am joinging BIL now. Thanks again!

[Jschatzman]

Thanks to everyone!

I did sign up for BIL but I was barely able to use the website because of so many errors. Also, it appears that unless you pay the $45 you can't actually see what the website is for, other than buying educational materials.

Thanks very much for all the suggestions. I may try BIL again some time in the future when I am retired and/or am in the mood to be more patient with website errors.

Jim