[relpar]

Partner, first in hand opens 1D, my RHO makes a pre-emptive bid of 2S. What should I bid with S.ATxx, H.ATxxx, D.J, and C.Jxx? If I bid 3H is it forcing?

[paulg]

It is fairly standard that a direct three hearts is forcing and you have to double with hands that are not strong enough for this action.

This hand, with the diamond misfit, is not strong enough for a forcing three hearts. Another option is to pass and hope that partner doubles for takeout, seeking to play two spades doubled.

[nudnikbp]

Double, which is negative and shows at least four hearts. Regarding strength, the double shows a hand that is strong enough to play at the three level opposite a minimum opening bid. The doubler could have more strength than that but doesn't promise it. Without the negative double you won't be able to find your possible 4-4 heart fit.

[bluenikki]

nudnikbp, on 2020-July-26, 05:38, said:

Double, which is negative and shows at least four hearts. Regarding strength, the double shows a hand that is strong enough to play at the three level opposite a minimum opening bid. The doubler could have more strength than that but doesn't promise it. Without the negative double you won't be able to find your possible 4-4 heart fit.

But what do you do next??

In real life, opener will bid 3♦. What are you doing then? Bidding 3♥ would urge partner to pass with a minimum misfit. Will you enjoy the 5-1 fit?

[DavidKok]

You pass then, unless you play Good/Bad NT in that situation in which case 3♦ is forcing. You don't have extra points, partner has a minimum and there is no indication bidding on will improve the situation. Quit while you're still low and hope 3♦ makes on general playing strength.

[nullve]

relpar, on 2020-July-25, 07:35, said:

Partner, first in hand opens 1D, my RHO makes a pre-emptive bid of 2S. What should I bid with S.ATxx, H.ATxxx, D.J, and C.Jxx?

Pass.

Yes, you could miss a 26 hcp game if partner has the wrong shape, like 3154.

relpar, on 2020-July-25, 07:35, said:

If I bid 3H is it forcing?

Forcing to game.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-26, 08:36, said:

You pass then, unless you play Good/Bad NT in that situation in which case 3♦ is forcing. You don't have extra points, partner has a minimum and there is no indication bidding on will improve the situation. Quit while you're still low and hope 3♦ makes on general playing strength.

So partner gets the 5-1 fit. That will convince partner to pass your neg db in the future.

(Or to cue and then let you play whatever you bid.)

[msjennifer]

Sir,I shall PASS this hand.3H is a forcing bid.Hand is unsuitable for a take out double.or 3H bid.

[apollo1201]

Vulnerabilities and type of scoring might influence choices, but clearly, a 3H forcing bid is a clear overstatement if the hand.

X is okay on a short term, but if partner doesn’t bid H over that, you’ve likely endplayed yourself in a shaky contract (3m by partner or 3NT by you). Bidding 3H over partner’s 3m would show a good-ish 6-cd suit and about 10 points, so it is also out of the question.

You can more easily survive after a pass, for if partner Xes, 4H and 2SX are realistic options. If partner bids a minor (guaranteeing 6D or often 55), you can decide to play it there or take your chances at 3NT, this DJ needs to be useful and entries management will probably be tricky. But partner didn’t pass so his hand shouldn’t be too minimal.

Not sure though of what 3H could mean over 3m but it looks like a weak hand with long H and a strong desire not to play in partner’s suit(s). Sth like Qxxx QJxxxxx x x or xxxx KT9xxx x xx. As with a better hand, partner will assume you’d have Xed the round before. Forgetting this exact type of hand😉

[DavidKok]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-26, 09:43, said:

So partner gets the 5-1 fit. That will convince partner to pass your neg db in the future.

(Or to cue and then let you play whatever you bid.)

Even on Mondays this way of thinking is too pessimistic. On an auction like this is it quite improbable that partner has 3 spades (there are only 13 in the pack). I don't know what your agreements are about 2NT on this auction, which changes the situation too much for me to continue speculating. A double is certainly not risk-free, but pass can be tremendously expensive as well. I know for certain I would get chewed out for even considering a pass with two aces and some outside values.

For a more realistic estimate, consider that the position of 10 of the spades are known. For me the 1♦ opening shows 5+ diamonds 97% of the time, and overcaller has shown 6 spades. Statistically the remaining 3 spades are on average divided 0.86/0.75/1.4 between partner/overcaller/advancer, although in practice I think many would jump to 3♠ when holding a seventh. I think it's fair to expect partner to have 1 spade most of the time. And what else? Let's give them 3 hearts, the killing number. That leaves either 5/4 in the minors (in which case we get to 3♣) or six diamonds (in which case we end up in the 6-1 'fit'). Neither of these contracts are pretty, but you'll live.
Conversely, if partner shows up with something like a fourth heart, or 5/5 in the minors, or a seventh diamond, or extra values (for 3NT) you will have a very hard time catching up after a pass.

As for "That will convince partner to pass your neg db in the future.", if your partner really lashes out like this you have my sympathies, and I would recommend you look for a gentler partner. The truth of the situation is that the opponents have taken away valuable bidding spade with their jump overcall, and it is simply impossible to give a fully accurate description of your hand (using standard methods). This is where concepts such as the "smallest lie" and "lesser risk" enter, and double really isn't as risky as you seem to claim it is. Passing will save your skin in the post-mortem ("I had no bid partner, what else was I to do, my shape was wrong for a double (which traditionally means 'I have points but no convenient bid'.") but will decrease your odds at the table. And I'm gradually learning that in situations like that it's almost always better to bite the bullet and take some action immediately, instead of waiting for a better opportunity that never comes.

[nige1]

relpar "If I bid 3H is it forcing?"
++++++++++++++++++++
IMO, a hard problem. I rank
1, Double = T/O. If partner rebids 3♦, then 3♥ with trepidation.
2. 2N = NAT N/F. Might still be able to find a ♥ fit.
3. Pass = NAT Underbid and it's not completely clear what to do if partner protects with a double.
4. 3♥ = NAT F/1 Slight overbid especially in view of the singleton ♦.

---

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-27, 01:38, said:

Even on Mondays this way of thinking is too pessimistic. On an auction like this is it quite improbable that partner has 3 spades (there are only 13 in the pack). I don't know what your agreements are about 2NT on this auction, which changes the situation too much for me to continue speculating. A double is certainly not risk-free, but pass can be tremendously expensive as well. I know for certain I would get chewed out for even considering a pass with two aces and some outside values.

For a more realistic estimate, consider that the position of 10 of the spades are known. For me the 1♦ opening shows 5+ diamonds 97% of the time, and overcaller has shown 6 spades. Statistically the remaining 3 spades are on average divided 0.86/0.75/1.4 between partner/overcaller/advancer, although in practice I think many would jump to 3♠ when holding a seventh. I think it's fair to expect partner to have 1 spade most of the time. And what else? Let's give them 3 hearts, the killing number. That leaves either 5/4 in the minors (in which case we get to 3♣) or six diamonds (in which case we end up in the 6-1 'fit'). Neither of these contracts are pretty, but you'll live.
Conversely, if partner shows up with something like a fourth heart, or 5/5 in the minors, or a seventh diamond, or extra values (for 3NT) you will have a very hard time catching up after a pass.

As for "That will convince partner to pass your neg db in the future.", if your partner really lashes out like this you have my sympathies, and I would recommend you look for a gentler partner. The truth of the situation is that the opponents have taken away valuable bidding spade with their jump overcall, and it is simply impossible to give a fully accurate description of your hand (using standard methods). This is where concepts such as the "smallest lie" and "lesser risk" enter, and double really isn't as risky as you seem to claim it is. Passing will save your skin in the post-mortem ("I had no bid partner, what else was I to do, my shape was wrong for a double (which traditionally means 'I have points but no convenient bid'.") but will decrease your odds at the table. And I'm gradually learning that in situations like that it's almost always better to bite the bullet and take some action immediately, instead of waiting for a better opportunity that never comes.

When partner is 2=3=5=3 or 3=2=5=3 he is forced to bid 3♦. YOU forced him to, without any preparation. Those are not rare holdings. The only way the double works out is if opener has 4 hearts. In all other cases, you have forced him to play a difficult or hopeless partscore.

Maybe he won't pass in the future, but after the 2nd unprepared neg dbl, he will attempt to train you somehow. I personally would begin responding with a cue with every hand lacking 4 hearts or 5 clubs. And if partner then refuses to bid his own suit, sticking me with declaring, I inform him that we are no longer playing negative doubles above 2♥.

[DavidKok]

I don't open 1♦ with those shapes, and you've conveniently ignored that partner is likely to have only one spade. Furthermore the double is extremely helpful if partner has more than a minimum, it is difficult to reach some excellent games otherwise.

Your last paragraph seems less than helpful. I am very happy to not be sitting opposite your partner.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-27, 07:15, said:

I don't open 1♦ with those shapes, and you've conveniently ignored that partner is likely to have only one spade. Furthermore the double is extremely helpful if partner has more than a minimum, it is difficult to reach some excellent games otherwise.

Your last paragraph seems less than helpful. I am very happy to not be sitting opposite your partner.

"Likely" is not the same as "almost certain." Playing a 5-1 fit at 3 with 13 facing 10 35% of the time is unacceptable.

None of you are addressing the fact vthat you are sticking partner with declaring.

Taking a shot when you yourself will have to play the result is completely different.

You don't believe in training partner? If partner plays a high spot on your lead from AK against a suit contract with the queen not in dummy, you should underlead without pause for thought. No matter what partner thinks he *should* do, if he knows how you will react, he will adjust his habits.

[miamijd]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-27, 10:49, said:

"Likely" is not the same as "almost certain." Playing a 5-1 fit at 3 with 13 facing 10 35% of the time is unacceptable.

None of you are addressing the fact vthat you are sticking partner with declaring.

Taking a shot when you yourself will have to play the result is completely different.

You don't believe in training partner? If partner plays a high spot on your lead from AK against a suit contract with the queen not in dummy, you should underlead without pause for thought. No matter what partner thinks he *should* do, if he knows how you will react, he will adjust his habits.

Why should I underlead if partner plays a high spot on a lead from AK against a suit contract with the queen not in dummy? He can't have xx and want a third-round ruff?

[miamijd]

This is one of those "yuck" hands. There are really only two choices: X and 2NT. Passing will score a lot of -110s and +50s when you have a game. Bidding 3H is going to get you soaring out past Jupiter when you'll have a struggle to make a partial.

I think I slightly prefer the odd-looking bid of 2NT, because you are likely to land in a decent spot no matter what happens. The worst thing that could happen is that partner passes or raises to 3NT with four hearts (he won't bid hearts, because you've just denied them with 2NT). You end up playing 3NT with a 9-fit in H. Not great, especially if partner has 2452 with a low doubleton club, but probably not disastrous. If partner has two spades, you may even be in the best spot.

Missing an 8-fit in H isn't something to be too worried about. If partner has 2+ spades, you would much rather be in NT, and even if he just has one spade, NT could still be right, depending on his H holding. If he has a spade void with 3 hearts (ten cards in the minors), he probably won't pass or bid 3NT without a huge diamond holding.

But the bottom line with 2NT is that you will be able to handle anything partner does relatively easily.

The problem if you X is that you aren't going to like it if partner rebids 3C or 3D, which he is very likely to do.

What do you do if he rebids 3C? Pass? 3H (probably not)? 3NT? Probably you pass, but with no confidence you are either in the right strain or at the right level.

Worse, what do you do if he rebids 3D? You have a nasty guess. Leave him in a 5-1 or 6-1 D fit? Bid H and find him with 2173? Not pretty.

I think I would avoid these problems by bidding 2NT and being prepared to apologize to partner if it goes wrong. It's close, though.

Cheers,
Mike

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-26, 09:43, said:

.. That will convince partner to pass your neg db in the future.

.. he will attempt to train you somehow.

.. I inform him that we are no longer playing negative doubles above 2♥.

.. None of you are addressing the fact vthat you are sticking partner with declaring.

.. Taking a shot when you yourself will have to play the result is completely different.

Wow, your partnerships must be truly awful. A good partnership would do none of the above. If partner can't see this is a tricky decision, and is going to resort to bidding badly in the future to punish you, or gets upset about who ends up declaring a certain hand, you really should be looking for a new partner (or a new hobby).

[bluenikki]

miamijd, on 2020-July-27, 14:08, said:

Why should I underlead if partner plays a high spot on a lead from AK against a suit contract with the queen not in dummy? He can't have xx and want a third-round ruff?

No no a thousand times no.

When the queen is not in dummy, encouragement shows the queen.

You apparently are a partner who needs to be re-educated by underleads.

[Stephen Tu]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-27, 15:23, said:

No no a thousand times no.

When the queen is not in dummy, encouragement shows the queen.

You apparently are a partner who needs to be re-educated by underleads.

You seem to be playing a different signalling strategy than 99.9% of bridge players.
The rest of us play an attitude signal (either high = encourage = so called "standard", or low card = encourage = "upside-down"), suggests partner to continue with the other high honor, and suggests *either* doubleton looking for a ruff *or* the Q and desire to contiinue the suit *or* a strong idea that shifting will be much worse than just continuing.

Find a book on defense sometimes, any book, read what it says about such situations.
The time you can safely underlead is when partner plays the Queen under your honor from AKx(xx), showing QJ or stiff Q. Or if partner encourages,has shown length in the suit during the auction or otherwise simply cannot have doubleton and you need him in at trick 2 for some reason or another.


What do you do if you actually do have a doubleton and want a ruff? Low? What if you have neither doubleton nor Q and want partner to shift? It seems your strategy either gives up on ruffing or gives up on suggesting a different suit.

[crapdown4]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-27, 15:23, said:

No no a thousand times no.

When the queen is not in dummy, encouragement shows the queen.

You apparently are a partner who needs to be re-educated by underleads.

That statement is fundamentally wrong.

First of all, "encouragement" never shows any particular card. It shows A DESIRE FOR PARTNER TO CONTINUE THE SUIT. This could be because the leader's partner has the Queen OR can ruff the third round.

If the leader's partner does not have the Queen and CANNOT ruff the third round, then he plays low to discourage. This is to prevent the Queen from being established in declarer's hand. This would be particularly useful if the opening leader had, say, AKJx.

With Qxx, the leader's partner would play his highest spot card to encourage. This means that the opening leader will not know immediately WHY partner is encouraging. But it's simple. Just play the other top honor and a third round. Partner will win the third round, one way or another.

If you follow the "rule" espoused by bluenikki, you'll never get a third round ruff when you have a doubleton, because you'll always be playing low (lacking the Queen). That can lead to letting a lot of contracts that should go down making.