[ShiftyMan]

I've played and read about bridge for ten years, but I was stumped by this seemingly basic question from a friend:

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Are North's calls all natural here?

If system is on - would it still be on if North had volunteered 2♦ directly over 2♣?

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Thanks.

[KingCovert]

I would assume that systems are off.

How do you play in 3♦ if they are on? Your partner clearly can't have the values for a constructive auction, so, your partner would only seek to bid in order to sign off in a suit contract. I'm really struggling to think of a hand that wants to bid stayman (for example) from a gambling on fit / values perspective that passes 2♣.

[dokoko]

If undiscussed 2NT system is off. There are good reasons for this:
- advancer is limited by his second round pass,
- advancer might have volunteered a bid with a long major,
- advancer might want to play cheaply in a minor.

So I think a cuebid in opponent's suit might ask doubler to bid a 4 card major, other bids are natural. Playing some other stuff needs prior agreement with partner IMO.

[dokoko]

If undiscussed 2NT system is off. There are good reasons for this:
- advancer is limited by his second round pass,
- advancer might have volunteered a bid with a long major,
- advancer might want to play cheaply in a minor.

So I think a cuebid in opponent's suit might ask doubler to bid a 4 card major, other bids are natural. Playing some other stuff needs prior agreement with partner IMO.

[heart76]

Disclaimer: not an expert.

If W has 6-7C with 13-ish HCP and S 20-21 balanced with a sensible C holding, I think there is a fair chance of a M fit.
So why give transfers and stayman away?
One question could be if 3C is stayman now, if you normally use puppet, given that S shouldn't have 5M.
But regardless, I would assume system on.
With xx xxx xxxxxxx x, I'd do whatever I do over our regular 20-21 NT opening.
What am I missing?

[KingCovert]

heart76, on 2020-July-24, 08:46, said:

Disclaimer: not an expert.

If W has 6-7C with 13-ish HCP and S 20-21 balanced with a sensible C holding, I think there is a fair chance of a M fit.
So why give transfers and stayman away?
One question could be if 3C is stayman now, if you normally use puppet, given that S shouldn't have 5M.
But regardless, I would assume system on.
With xx xxx xxxxxxx x, I'd do whatever I do over our regular 20-21 NT opening.
What am I missing?

The better question is, if the auction had gone: 1♦-P-P-X-2♦-P-P-2NT. Are systems on now? How do you sign off in clubs? What about if opener was bidding hearts? Systems on just seems like a very strange agreement in sequences like this. If you can't bid freely over the double, your hand has nothing to say except, "I have this suit and no values".

If your hand is balanced, your job is to stay quiet. Your partner shouldn't bid 2NT with hands that can't stomach such a reality, especially being in front of the opener. A POTENTIAL 4-4 major suit fit is not enough justification to gamble here with a garbage hand.

On hands like this, it's totally okay for the weaker hand to declare, if shapely. You hide their shape.

Also, the primary reason that people play transfers is because the transfer is forcing. It allows responder to show multiple types of hands due to the fact that the transfer bid cannot be passed. You can sign off in a major, invite in a major, invite in no-trump, make a mild slam try by bidding game in the major... etc...

Any hand that wants to bid here, but couldn't bid over the double is a bad hand. You're better off just simply setting the contract. It's not confusing, and it provides Advancer with more natural bids.

[nige1]

ShiftyMan "I've played and read about bridge for ten years, but I was stumped by this seemingly basic question from a friend: Are North's calls all natural here?"
+++++++++++++++++++++++
You should have a simple agreement. Mine is that system is on if the notrump bid is the 1st natural call by the partnership.
Hence system is on, here

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ShiftyMan "if system is on - would it still be on if North had volunteered 2♦ directly over 2♣?"
++++++++++++++++++++
But system is not on here because partner has bid ♦ naturally.

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[DavidKok]

What does South show? The experts I know play 2NT in fourth seat as natural, since there is no longer a need to jump with a two-suited hand. So the double first and second-round 2NT should show something special, such as extra strength.

Possibly related: if South has some modicum of supports for the majors then what do they think they are they doing? East-West seem to have the clubs as South ran from defending 2♣, but bypassed 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ in doing so. What contract is South hoping to reach? In the North seat I would stretch like never seen before to bid any 5-card suit after (1♣)-P-(P)-X-(2♣)-?, I'm limited anyway and declaring in a long suit on the 2-level is about the safest thing in the game.

If all at the table are indeed experts then I suspect North has about 0-5 points with a balanced hand and possibly 3 clubs (with something like (443)-2 and ~4 points a takeout double of 2♣ looks mandatory to me), South is starting at a 22-24 BAL and by inference East is looking at something like 5-5 in the majors and close to no points. I don't think any system is needed here whatsoever, you're going to be playing 2NT or 3NT, making or no.

[Zelandakh]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-25, 13:33, said:

What does South show?

A fourth seat Double followed by the minimum NT bid traditionally shows approximately a strong NT type hand (max 18) with a direct 2NT being natural and more or less 19-21. There are a few slight deviations to the ranges so I am deliberately being coy on that. In the first auction, if partner cannot summon up a call over 2♣ then we almost certainly should not be volunteering the 2 level unilaterally with the strong NT hand, so I would expect this 2NT to be ~22-23.

The second auction is more interesting. The traditional way is for North's free 2♦ here to show some values, meaning that it is now safe for South to bid 2NT with the strong NT type, so this X then 2NT would now be weaker than a direct 2NT. An alternative that fits with modern bidding would be for North's free 2♦ to be based primarily on shape and not show extra values, in which case the strong NT hand should pass it and again the X then 2NT would revert back to 22-23. The discussion around this specific aspect is the only one that I can conceivably see being an "Expert Class Bridge" subject and even then I doubt if it is really of any interest to a real expert. Sadly, the majority of the real expert BBFers already left in the direction of BW due to this forum being constantly clogged up with non-expert subjects.

[helene_t]

Assuming a direct 2NT was 18-19, this should be stronger than that. Maybe 20-22. A hand between a direct 1NT and 2NT, say (15)-16-17, would normally pass here although I suppose you could decide to double again with a (43)33.

So advancer could easily have constructive hand. And getting the contract in doubler's hand can be quite important in this specific auction.

OTOH I would prefer to have a way to sign off in 3♦. Puppet stayman plus transfers is an option, but then you give up on garbage stayman. An alternative is to play that Smolen and Texas apply but Jacoby transfers do not. With a five-card major you could chose to bid stayman, hoping for a 3♦ response which would allow you to use Smolen, and after a 3♥ response you would then have to bid 3♠ which partner hopefully sees as a puppet to 3NT.

Without discussion, though, 3♣ is a general cubid that works like Stayman, and other bids are to play.

I once agreed with Csaba that Smolen applies in a similar auction but Jacoby transfers do not.